Guest jjosh Posted June 10, 2008 Share Posted June 10, 2008 I have just stumbled upon a 73 240 with a 83 280 turbo engine. This seems to have some good parts but the car isn't running at the moment. I've done some reading on the turbo tom draw through setup. I am aware that this is old school but the guy I'm getting the car from ditched the carb (wish he hadn't really as these are hard to find) and replaced it with a holley pro-jection system. I have read that this system is good to 400+hp but I have to think they weren't thinking of boost when they designed it. most of turbo toms kit is still intact (re: intake, turbo etc) though I notice that this car has the throttle body farther forward than any carb set up I've seen (all 2 pics of the turbo tom kit that I was able to find anyway). The engine has been built with a "turbo cam" of some sort though the spec. card is lost in time at this point. My point to all this is this....should I continue with the throttle body set up (the car will run, I've manually put gas in the throttle body and had it running for a minute..sounds healthy) or should I take the FI manifold from the spare 280 engine that came with the car and rework the turbo set up to a more conventional configuration. The current set up has a manual box behind the passenger seat to adjust fuel etc. The head is also the hydraulic version...not sure if that makes a difference. I've owned two turbo buicks so I'm familiar with turbos in general. I've also built many carbed engines so the simplicity of the TB injection is appealing. I am wanting 300-350 wheel hp (guy I'm getting the car from claims 300 at the crank). The engine is built to handle the power I just don't know the limits of the draw through set up and i can't find a dyno sheet with one of these kits. I'de like to know what kind of power can be had without changing to a newer FI manifold....I am also wondering wat kind of power the intake manifold can support...it seems small to me but I'm used to much larger engines. .......fyi I've spent the last week browsing the site for info...I may have missed something but I am just looking for opinions at this point from people with more experience with these setup than I. I appreciate any help I might get. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daeron Posted June 10, 2008 Share Posted June 10, 2008 First off, welcome to HybridZ! The stock intake manifold is, as you noticed a *bit* on the smallish side. The runners are the primary impedance to flow, and they can only be hogged out so much; in carburetor terms, the choice is between triple sidedrafts of a 40mm choke, or a 44 mm choke. (Some may go larger, but 44s are generally agreed to be plenty for good ooomph) The stock FI intake manifold runners are something on the order of 37-39mm MAX diameter, so they are smaller than the SMALL carbs that would be installed on the same engine. I must confess I am not at all familiar with the Holley system you mention.. A quick googling shows it to be essentially a Holley-carb style throttle body/injector setup... so I have no idea how well it would work with the turbotom system, but the only one I saw on holley's website was a 2 barrel rated up to 275 horse? What kind of engine management does this pro-jection system use, a proprietary holley box? How capable is the control for it?? Without the ability to tune to very specific conditions, your maximum power will be much lower. Achieving HP from a turbo L-series is all about a high degree of engine control. Not necessarily F1 high-tech, but something quicker than the 1975 ECU components could ever be. A modern computer system allows you to skate much closer to the edge of disaster without crossing that edge, which yields more power. To me, the question is one of how capable the computer is, or possibly using an aftermarket EMS such as megasquirt with your TB hardware. ..and I hate to sound like a chump, but it helps the clarity of your posts if you hit "enter" a few times to separate different thoughts. Its more to make it easier to read for everyone who might be out there to help you than anything else. Got any photos of your setup that you can post??? I'm sure people want to see it Good luck and happy HybridZing! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Six_Shooter Posted June 10, 2008 Share Posted June 10, 2008 Can you post a picture of the "ECU" of the projection system. There were a few different versions, and some of the older systems, were only marginally better than a carb, yes I'm an EFI guy, and I'm even saying that depending on the exact model, a carb might be the better way to go. So the engine is just not getting fuel? Maybe something as simple as a blown fuse for the ECU or fuel pump. Have you been able to determine what the actual problem is? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jjosh Posted June 10, 2008 Share Posted June 10, 2008 Have only seen the car once. It is being delivered this week. The last time this car was on the road was 2003. It supposedly had an issue with cutting out and then would start again after a few minutes. Sounds like a fuel pump issue to me but I'm going to go over the whole system before I go far with it. I will take pics as soon as it gets here as I would like to not waste time on obsolete parts if possible. I will have to do some clutch and brake work as both aren't having any pressure (brake fluid leaked out...not sure about the clutch at this point). The car has a r200 rear end and a 5 speed out of a 280. Some rust but I wouldn't expect less out of a car this old in georgia. I will do a full inventory of the exact parts on the car in a couple of days..I am just looking for general opinions at the moment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jjosh Posted June 10, 2008 Share Posted June 10, 2008 I appreciate the input. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OlderThanMe Posted June 10, 2008 Share Posted June 10, 2008 You know that turbo tom L6's with the works made upwards of 450hp on a built motor (race prep the stock crank and rods, forged pistons, headwork...easy with the datsun motors) Anyway you are in Flowery Branch? Let me know when you get the car and I can come check it out! I go to school right there so I'm close by. plus I have a megaload of spare crap if you need anything cheap.(I can make you a heck of a deal on a early 74' 260Z shell...lol take the whole thing please) I say keep the turbo tom setup but maybe change the turbo to a newer, more efficient turbo. (Holset HX35 with a 12cm^2 or 14cm^2 exhaust housing would be my choice). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daeron Posted June 10, 2008 Share Posted June 10, 2008 If you need some bits and pieces to put together a more typical fuel injection system, my uncle has a bunch of stock intake manifolds and fuel rails, and we're only a few hundred miles down I-95, so shipping shouldn't be too awful.. Personally I would LOVE to see you find a practical way to stick with the turbo tom setup. I am more of an EFI type person myself, but even if you wind up finding a carburetor for it, with good quality spark control real power is not incredibly difficult to achieve. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wheelman Posted June 10, 2008 Share Posted June 10, 2008 I have one of those Projection units sitting in my garage The ECU is an analog based unit that uses potentiometers to adjust low, mid and high rpm injector open times based solely on the TPS and RPM. I'd switch to Megasquirt control if I were to buy that car. Then whether to convert it to a more conventional EFI or stick with the TurboTom setup is a matter of taste. I would probably stick with the current setup because it's different and I'm cheap. Wheelman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jjosh Posted June 11, 2008 Share Posted June 11, 2008 I think I'll stick with the throttle body set up for now if I can make decent power with it. I am not far from Balanced Performance so I'll take it up and see if what kind of tuning we can do on the dyno. The water/alch injection tank for the kit is long gone so I'll have to set something up there but I'll figure it out. My only regret to this setup is the lack of an intercooler......chemical cooling is so chancy and I'de like to drive this a few days a week...guess that means low boost on the street..JW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daeron Posted June 11, 2008 Share Posted June 11, 2008 Bitchin! allright, now pay your dues and GO GET US SOME PHOTOGRAPHS!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OlderThanMe Posted June 11, 2008 Share Posted June 11, 2008 The water/alch injection tank for the kit is long gone so I'll have to set something up there but I'll figure it out. My Dad did a VERY cheap solution to this kind of problem when his windshield washer fluid resivour broke in his 944turbo... Take the 1 gallon washer fluid bottle and cut a hole in the cap so the pickup tube has a slight interference fit with the cap. Wedge said cannister inbetween the inner fender and the radiator and it is a great temporary-permanent solution. He did eventually go to Porsche and buy a new tank...($$$ and 2 hours to install) Just take your methanol container and do this or put your methanol in a washer fluid container. LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jjosh Posted June 18, 2008 Share Posted June 18, 2008 Car was delivered last sat. Has a good bit of rust but good suspension and drive train parts so I'm not doing all bad. It looks like I'm about to learn body work. I think I'm going to try to find someone who wants to trade a stock fuel injection turbo set up for a modified turbo tom kit with throttlebody injection. The turbo is a Rajay....not sure what Tom originally used but this one was recently rebuilt so if I run it a while it shouldn't pose any problems. If this still had the carb I'd consider leaving it alone. I want an intercooler.....and more boost. I am starting a project thread in the appropriate section if anyone wants to follow along. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silent Posted June 18, 2008 Share Posted June 18, 2008 projection is crude at best. it's more or less a replacement for the chevy tbi trucks from 87-96. some people think that tbi is a good idea. in theory it works well. in reality it has big draw backs in the end. i would honestly ditch the projection, megasquirt it using turbo z parts. you can use the same turbo if so desired. since you already have the efi pump in there with the projection kit. you're more or else well on your way. just my two pennies. im most likely out in left field on this Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wheelman Posted June 18, 2008 Share Posted June 18, 2008 The pump from the projection setup won't work with a stock Z EFI system. The projection injectors are low pressure/high flow so the pump is more like a carb pump and only produces about 15psi. Wheelman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSM Posted June 18, 2008 Share Posted June 18, 2008 Welcome! So what did you end up paying for the car? Delivery? Just curious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jjosh Posted June 19, 2008 Share Posted June 19, 2008 I paid one 2000 Buell M2 cyclone (1200) motorcycle and the guy delivered it to me. I like anything that is fast. I had $2500 in the bike. I have built many cars so I know the value of parts fairly well. The engine in the car has 20,000 miles on the build and the previous owner suppled paperwork on the engine etc. Well over $6000 in receipts (not hard to do on these cars). I also have the original trans (4speed) and an additional L28 N/A out of a 81....complete with intake and clutch still attached. I have been thinking (since reading the above post touching on the subject) of using what I have and building a standard intercooled set up. The Rajay turbo on the engine now is supposedly a good bit larger than stock, unfotunately there is no way (that I could find) to look up the numbers as Rajay was sold and only produces turbos for aviation at this time. I know I could take some measurements but if I pull the turbo off.....it's going to be to replace it with something else. I could sell the pro-jection to a small block guy to fund the computer-injectors etc...something to think about. I'll be starting a project thread soon...whatever I decide to do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OlderThanMe Posted June 19, 2008 Share Posted June 19, 2008 Josh, I say keep the turbo tom exhaust manifold and turbo. You will be significantly downgrading going back to a L28ET turbo manifold. I would imagine that you would be able to use a stock intake with little or no work to your exhaust. There is somebody that welded a stock EFI intake base(for the injector mounting) to a different manifold. I think it may have been a turbo tom manifold. I say convert the turbo tom over to EFI using your N/A intake base but the turbo tom manifold cut/welded or a better plenum. Run the rayjay turbo until it has no life left and then find a good replacement turbo. Doesn't that exhaust manifold have a T4 flange on it? For EFI you can use Megasquirt which is pretty cheap...but not very user friendly. I've got an extra L28ET exhaust manifold if you want to see how different (dinky) it is from your turbo tom exhaust manifold. What I'd do if I were you, Put a hood scoop on the driver's side and put an intercooler right there(Impreza WRX style) to keep the intake tract short, or use an air/water intercooler. Maybe like one of the LINDSEY RACING intercooler units. Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
schwiplarkin Posted June 21, 2008 Share Posted June 21, 2008 keep the draw through!!! If you want i can get the number of the guy who built my carb. runs great , and old school power plants kick ass!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jjosh Posted June 22, 2008 Share Posted June 22, 2008 I'm convinced. I'm going to run the current set-up for a while. I have a spare L28 I can sell to help fund the parts for a custom FI setup. I have some experience tuning so I'm not worried about a finicky system. I'll use the factory intake I have already to begin with and most likely build a custom intake. I know some guys are making good power with the draw through system but like I said before....I want an intercooled set up for simplicity (and higher boost without chemical cooling). I appreciate all the input.........I just realize "I" was used 12 times in this post...random...JW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.