texanredneck Posted April 28, 2009 Share Posted April 28, 2009 Is the throttle body off of a 82 or 83 turbo and upgrade for the 82 N/A? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators BRAAP Posted April 28, 2009 Administrators Share Posted April 28, 2009 Upgrade? In what way? 1) If performance is your goal, the throttle body is NOT the place to start making changes. The stock throttle body will support in excess of 185 N/A HP. A good tune, and optimum ignition timing is the first place to start. 2) All L-6 Throttle bodies have the same size butterfly and I am pretty sure the '82-'83 Turbo TB is the same Turbo and non turbo, maybe save for the TPS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slown280z Posted April 28, 2009 Share Posted April 28, 2009 Even the TPS is the same! But they only use the contacts on the idle side. The only reason it would feel "faster" is because from an engine standpoint you'd be hitting "WOT" before you're actually mechanically at WOT. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
texanredneck Posted April 28, 2009 Author Share Posted April 28, 2009 So the throttle bodys are the same then, i can just upgrade the throttle body to the big throat throttle body i think made by msa if i were doing a throttle body swap? and if i start at the ignition what could i do? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woldson Posted April 28, 2009 Share Posted April 28, 2009 A larger throttle body is just one piece of the pie. The AFM will not really keep up with the better flow of the larger TB. (air flow) The runners on the intake should also be done to match larger volume of air that can be potentially moved, then maybe cam at least, then exhaust system. Think of it this way, try sucking your favorite beverage using a garden hose with only a pen tip on the end. Defeats the purpose abit. There is some advantage due to cylinders, friction and volumes that can be moved, but I don't think it is to notable here under the conditions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators BRAAP Posted April 28, 2009 Administrators Share Posted April 28, 2009 (edited) So the throttle bodys are the same then, i can just upgrade the throttle body to the big throat throttle body i think made by msa if i were doing a throttle body swap? and if i start at the ignition what could i do? Sorry if this sounds harsh, but I just hate to see someone that is truly desiring to improve the performance of their engine get caught up in the ricers mixing bowl spending money on parts that look the part but do NOT deliver any more performance. If that person is not interested in “real” performance gains but only the appearance of, i.e. faux power or “ricer”, then so be it, at least they know they are installing bling, not performance. But if you are interested in real performance gains, in my not so humble opinion, the TB is not the place to start! If you do a TB swap, perform back to back dyno comparisons or drag strip runs with no other changes made to the car, stock TB and the big throat! In short, yes, you can spend them money and time to install the MSA Big Throat, but you will NOT be upgrading the performance of the engine. And I repeat; 1) If performance is your goal, the throttle body is NOT the place to start making changes. The stock throttle body will support in excess of 185 N/A HP. A good tune, and optimum ignition timing is the first place to start. ...That 185 N/A HP is with a stock cam and stock EFI! Interested in knowing how much a stock Z car throttle body can flow on only 12 lbs of boost? Well over 567 raw uncorrected HP on the dyno, if the engine will breathe that much! Been there built that as well, (this endurance race engine was actually breathing through Two of those 2” Throttle bodies, one per bank and on our engine dyno that engine produced 1168 HP at 5800 RPM on only 12 lbs of boost! Pictures of that engine and the dyno sheet are in the link below…) Great discussion on larger throttle bodies in this link; http://forums.hybridz.org/showthread.php?t=119899 Hope that helps, Paul Edited April 28, 2009 by BRAAP Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
texanredneck Posted April 28, 2009 Author Share Posted April 28, 2009 Kool so the throttle body is not the place to start. What I want to do is change the head i have to a turbo head but keep it N/A i was hoping on getting a custom intake and bigger throttle body and bigger cam. I was told with the turbo head i could encrease the rpm range so i wanted to open the intake as much as possible since im not using a turbo ( this includes headers). So if i do that i kno i need to upgrade my fuel system so keep up with the air coming in. What can i do about that? Just read the discussion in that link and the discussion opened my mind to keep the throttle body stock but try to get the heads intake ports opened along with the runners of the intake. Will keep reasearching opening head and intake. But that deffinately makes since not to open the throttle body but to open the intake and head first before even thinking of the throttle body. I want a good throttle range not full power at 50% throttle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators BRAAP Posted April 28, 2009 Administrators Share Posted April 28, 2009 (edited) Have you defined your goals yet? Like how is this engine to be used, race only, some street duty, etc? Have you defined your budget to meet that goal? If not, get that nailed down first. Then start looking around for the most efficient place to spend your money and time for the most gains within that budget. Depending on your goals, the P-79 head (I‘m assuming that is what you have), just might be ideal! P-79 even has the exact same chambers and intake ports as the P-90! For a radical bump in performance, here is how I see your list thus far; Custom intake! Cylinder head ported to match your desired driving conditions and power levels! Header and free flowing exhaust! Cam to match the intake and modified cylinder head! Aftermarket Fuel Control! With the mods you proposed you will need an aftermarket EFI system that allows you full control to tune around the modifications performed. As you mentioned already, the stock EFI will not allow that or keep up. The stock EFI can only be tricked so far with just a header which is still a lot of compromises in power vs drivability. An aftermarket EFI allows you to delete the AFM all together from the air stream and to fine tune all the holes the stock EFI can not. Aftermarket EFI first or at the same time as the other mods. Whatever you do, don't perform all of those mods with the stock EFI. As for which one is right for you? Only you can know that. So many option out there from the build it yourself to exotic Formula 1 offerings. Spend some time searching through the L-6 section and you’ll find quite a few proven build ups with numbers to back them up. Depending on your intended usage for this car, one or more of those build ups should be close starting point if not ideal, giving you something to build from. Hope that helps, Paul Edited April 28, 2009 by BRAAP Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators BRAAP Posted April 28, 2009 Administrators Share Posted April 28, 2009 .... Just read the discussion in that link and the discussion opened my mind to keep the throttle body stock but try to get the heads intake ports opened along with the runners of the intake. Will keep reasearching opening head and intake. But that deffinately makes since not to open the throttle body but to open the intake and head first before even thinking of the throttle body. I want a good throttle range not full power at 50% throttle Bingo! You got it. Keep reading, and as you learn more you'll be able to make this car perform as close to its peak, giving you the most return for your hard earned money, time and effort invested. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
texanredneck Posted April 28, 2009 Author Share Posted April 28, 2009 You guys are awsome. This is more information that i ever thought i would get. My budget isn't set. I can save for each part, im not looking at getting this done in a week. But how ever i would like to drive it normally but i do want power. Im still trying to jam all this in my head with learning the physics and stuff. Do you kno where i could start on that efi system and how would that tie in to my normal ecu and interior wiring. And how would i find the ratio for the intake cam and head porting? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators BRAAP Posted April 28, 2009 Administrators Share Posted April 28, 2009 We have a dedicated section just for after-market EFI systems. Engine Management systems list; http://forums.hybridz.org/showthread.php?t=121768 Discussion of the various systems; http://forums.hybridz.org/forumdisplay.php?f=113 Dedicated EFI sub forums; http://forums.hybridz.org/forumdisplay.php?f=87 Hope this helps, Paul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
texanredneck Posted April 28, 2009 Author Share Posted April 28, 2009 Awsome now if I get the megasquirt which i saw in a similar forum and went with the head and cam and intake right and took out the afm if I had any tech question could you help me? And what components does the megasquirt not come with? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
texanredneck Posted April 28, 2009 Author Share Posted April 28, 2009 Im kind of confused tho i have no idea which one to go with out of the megasquirt and is it good to go complete kit or build it your self. This is my first time dealing with a put together efi system. So I have no idea where to start Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
attworth Posted April 28, 2009 Share Posted April 28, 2009 This is one of those times when a search, of even Google of all places, will yield some incredible results. http://www.bgsoflex.com/megasquirt.html http://www.diyautotune.com/ Megasquirt has been around for a while and has been discussed in great depth by many many people and many many different applications. In short, MS is something intended for the DIYer to put together him/herself and learn. There's a great deal of information on the web and this site as well pertaining to the different components, what they do, why you need them, or why you don't, and how to make the system function properly. Almost forgot this one - the official forum of MS - http://www.msefi.com/index.php Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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