New Ford 5.0L "Cayote" V8

[JoeyICU]

aren't the new 5.0 going to have the 3v varible cam cylinder heads? thats more what i was refering to with the wiring issues

 

an iron block dohc motor vs an iron block sohc motor the dohc motor is always going to weigh more. Not all pi motors are iron block motors, the 03-04 exploreres had aluminum blocks and would probably weigh a little less then a dohc motor. if something says it weighs less, then i guess im wrong, but im pretty sure, aluminum block to aluminum block comparison the sohc motor will weigh less

[Guest Gr8White]

i have had 2 4.6 powered tbirds

i think shoving a 4.6 into the z's would kind of be a waste.

 

If your seat of the pants experience with the mod motors is limited to your experiences with the T-bird, try a built cammed 4.6 4V or similar before you give up on these engines and label them as being a waste of time. No offense, but the 4.6 in the T-bird is just not a performance engine. There are many V6 engines with little more than half the displacement that make more torque, not to mention just killing it on power.

 

Why would the electronics on the new 5.0 be any different or more difficult to manage than any other takeout? You get the entire harness and everything with the takeout, and Speartech or another reputable source could certainly customize it to any application, just like the LSX GM engines. Once you work out the mounts and driveshaft customization it should be just like any other swap.

 

From what I hear these new 5.0s are very strong and the forged crank gives you a great foundation. I would wager that this engine in a 2700 lb. Z will push it into the 11's with traction. It may not be the cheapest, but it would be unique and some real eye candy under the hood. the aftermarket support is good too. I say why not, after all this is HybridZ and it would certainly be an interesting and popular writeup if documented.

[kiwi303]

As far as electronics goes, I'm wondering how much is tied up to the rest of the chassis, if the engine ECU runs the stereo and air con and throws a hissy fit if it can't find everything it expects, then they'd need a standalone to run rather than bring the stock ECU to the Z.

[NeoTokyo]

Joey:

 

If you read back in my post or any of the Ford Press releases you will find that the engine is a 430lb Aluminum Block, aluminum head DOHC (4 cam) 5.0L

 

Thats 430lbs Fully dressed with wiring harness, mounts and headers. I should mention that this figure is possibly high as this engine is suppose to be lighter than other Mustang DOHC 4.6L's.

 

Thats lighter than the Iron block SOHC's that have been in the Mustang since 1996, its also lighter than a fully dressed LS1.

 

There has been NO Iron block DOHC 4.6L that has ever been in a Production Mustang (Except the 03/04 Cobra,) not in 1996 and not in 2004 when the last DOHC 4.6L was in the Mustang (Mach 1.) The ONLY Exception being the 03/04 Cobra with its cast iron block to add strength because of its supercharged build.

 

In 2005 the Mustang GT went over to the 3V SOHC iron block aluminum head buid. The GT500 is a 5.4L with an Iron block and aluminum 4V heads.

 

 

The Coyote will feature a Forged steel crankshaft, powder formed rods, Hyp Aluminum pistons and a beefed up Aluminum block with sprayed in Iron cylinder sleeves.

 

The new 4V head design on the Coyote will use hallow cams, smaller springs, smaller rockers and other new lighter parts to help bring the weight of these engines down.

 

Now back to the weight of 430lbs for the Coyote, you may ask; "How is this engine suppose to be lighter than other DOHC all aluminum 4.6L engines if the 96-98 is 425lbs and the 99-01 and 03-04 430lbs?"

 

Well the only answer I can give is that Ford is sandbagging the weight value and that has been the only weight value that I have heard of. So expect it to be at least 10lbs lighter.

 

Hope I could help sort a few things out.

Like I have said on other forums; These are exciting times with great new technologies!

 

[NeoTokyo]

Kiwi: the simple and cheap way to use a Coyote in a non 2011' is to run a 99-01 Cobra or 03/04 Mach 1 wiring harness and ECU.

I dont say 96-98 Cobra because it uses older EV1 fuel injector plugs where the 99+ is EV6 which is what the S197 uses BUT some EV6 plugs have different interlocks on them and wont fit so you may still need to replace them.

 

The 96-98 also uses Coil packs instead of coil on plug and has slightly different wiring not to mention IMRC's. Its best just not to mess with this year range of wiring harnesses.

 

The wiring harness will need some modification but nothing that the average person couldnt do. Now you will of course need the harness from the 2011' so that you can cut off the plugs and wiring that you will need to modify the earlier Mustang and Cobra wiring harness.

 

Easy stuff!

Edited January 1, 2010 by NeoTokyo
I know some things about some stuff :}

[NeoTokyo]

Joey; about an aluminum block PI or 3V build, yes it would be slightly lighter than a Iron block DOHC 4.6L.

 

But I dont think any of us here would ever even think about going with an Iron block DOHC 4.6L unless it were the 03/04 Cobra.

[johndaniel.b.coffin]

I guess I shouldn't be searching the web and posting useless stuff at 2 AM from now on. I apologize to all. I should have noticed this thread earlier.

[JoeyICU]

If your seat of the pants experience with the mod motors is limited to your experiences with the T-bird, try a built cammed 4.6 4V or similar before you give up on these engines and label them as being a waste of time. No offense, but the 4.6 in the T-bird is just not a performance engine. There are many V6 engines with little more than half the displacement that make more torque, not to mention just killing it on power.

 

Why would the electronics on the new 5.0 be any different or more difficult to manage than any other takeout? You get the entire harness and everything with the takeout, and Speartech or another reputable source could certainly customize it to any application, just like the LSX GM engines. Once you work out the mounts and driveshaft customization it should be just like any other swap.

 

From what I hear these new 5.0s are very strong and the forged crank gives you a great foundation. I would wager that this engine in a 2700 lb. Z will push it into the 11's with traction. It may not be the cheapest, but it would be unique and some real eye candy under the hood. the aftermarket support is good too. I say why not, after all this is HybridZ and it would certainly be an interesting and popular writeup if documented.

 

 

The Thunderbird SOHC motors where identical to the Mustang GT motors 96-98, ya they didn't make a lot of power but it didn't take much to get them moving along, the last time a Thunderbird was made as 1997, that was more then ten years ago, so of coarse there is new stuff making more power, I know that, I'm not saying there terror on wheels, I'm saying Ive dabbled in 4.6s for a long time before Ive gotten into the Z32 cars and the duramax i have now

 

The best I ever got out of my 96 Thunderbird(npi motor, 4r70w 4speed automatic) was a 14.6@99 spinning 1st and 2nd gear, the car was pretty quick, all i had done was full exhaust, a built transmission with an aftermarket torque converter, intake, 3.73, and a Superchips piggyback ecu tune. The car weighed 3800lbs give or a take a few pounds, nothing to set the world on fire but still not to shabby, the car also got 18city and 26 highway, on 87 octane, again not to bad at all, so i do love these motors, just never really consider them as quality crate motors, but i havent messed with them since 2005

 

Ive had experience in Mark 8's Cobras Crown Vics, Marauders, mustang gt. Having a modular motor for as long as i did, i got to know a lot of people, i also took a lot of ride in cars, the mod motor is a superbly unique V8 in its power delivery

 

I didn't know the harness were so readily available, Ive never really looked around for 4.6 crate motor information as Ive always counted them out as a descent swap motor because of there significant size and that they where a little heavy

 

I love modular motors, I'm still looking for another Thunderbird to buy, I'm not pooing on them, so no need to defend them, it was just my opinion, i have no idea the world that has opened up since leaving that 'scene'. Im merely under the opinion that these motors are handicapped vs the LS series, but i think that is swaying now that these motors are seeing more displacement, but each to his or her own

[JoeyICU]

Joey; about an aluminum block PI or 3V build, yes it would be slightly lighter than a Iron block DOHC 4.6L.

 

But I dont think any of us here would ever even think about going with an Iron block DOHC 4.6L unless it were the 03/04 Cobra.

 

 

ya that's the one of the points i was trying to make, the SOHC motors could be lighter, because of the cylinder head being lighter, but you do gain a bit more of HP with the DOHC configurations, or a 3v vs SOHC

 

Also to note, SOHC stuff can be had a lot cheaper then DOHC if say someone where on a budget

[NeoTokyo]

Nah, John its ok, similar posts happen. Extra imput is always good and a forum wouldnt be a forum without people posting.

 

The Coyote is an exciting new engine and its on most of our minds

 

I guess I shouldn't be searching the web and posting useless stuff at 2 AM from now on. I apologize to all. I should have noticed this thread earlier.

[NeoTokyo]

ya that's the one of the points i was trying to make, the SOHC motors could be lighter, because of the cylinder head being lighter, but you do gain a bit more of HP with the DOHC configurations, or a 3v vs SOHC

 

Also to note, SOHC stuff can be had a lot cheaper then DOHC if say someone where on a budget

 

True true, 2 cams are much easier to pay for than 4 not to mention if you want to upgrade the entire valve train from Jesel rockers to valves and springs, 16 is a lot easier to pay for than 24 or 32

 

Head porting also is much cheaper in many cases with the 2V and 3V SOHC heads than it is with the 4V DOHC heads.

 

Thats about where the cost differences end, the shortblock is fairly identical between the three with only minor changes such as valve reliefs in the pistons, timining components and so on.

[JoeyICU]

True true, 2 cams are much easier to pay for than 4 not to mention if you want to upgrade the entire valve train from Jesel rockers to valves and springs, 16 is a lot easier to pay for than 24 or 32

 

Head porting also is much cheaper in many cases with the 2V and 3V SOHC heads than it is with the 4V DOHC heads.

 

Thats about where the cost differences end, the shortblock is fairly identical between the three with only minor changes such as valve reliefs in the pistons, timining components and so on.

 

yep exactly

 

the best motor bang for buck to search for a swap would be the teksid mark8 DOHC motor. I don't know if anyone is familiar with those motors, and I don't know if they have been topped yet for modular aluminum block strength, but these where italian cast aluminum blocks (same casting company casts ferrari blocks) that came in all mark 8s 93-98, and i hear they are STRONGG. That coupled with the fact mark 8s see junkyards alot more then they should, bang for bucks way up there

[NeoTokyo]

True but the Mark VIII block is the same as the 96-98 Cobra block, the 96-98 Cobra block also carries an 8 bolt forged steel crankshaft where the Mark VIII is a nodular iron 6 bolt crankshaft.

 

These block when prepped correctly can sustain over 1200hp, but thats the catch, you need to prep and build the block correctly. This block is also 5lbs heavier than 99-04 aluminum DOHC blocks which is why it is so much stronger.

 

The thing with Ford aluminum 4.6L's is that they need to be built on a jig fully dressed otherwise clearances change. SHM discovered this in their pursuit for perfection when building this engine.

 

Its best to leave them in stock form if you buy a crate motor or low mile motor if you are on a budget or dont plan on going higher than what pump gas can sustain. Even the 10.65:1 CR 03/04 Mach 1 can be low boosted via either Roots SC's, Snail SC, or TT and make about 500rwhp with proper tuning. Of course this is with full bolt ons.

 

It is best to use SNOW PERFORMANCE products when using forced induction. Even better is to run E85 as it is 105 octane. You will however use about 40% more fuel to reach the same power numbers though but you will have a detonation free (If tuned correctly) High power engine.

[Guest Gr8White]

. Im merely under the opinion that these motors are handicapped vs the LS series.

 

No disagreement there. I'm a Ford guy too but couldn't pass on an LS2/T-56 for my 78 and finally bought one earlier this year out of an 06 GTO. I never considered a mod motor but did consider the 331 CID 302 out of my 88 Stang. In the end, the power, economy and JCI proven swap parts (as well as a good reputation for reliability) swayed me to the "dark" side.

 

The new 5.0 mod motor would have been something I would have considered, but the availability was not there at the time I was shopping and the cost would have certainly been greater than the LS2.

 

Making power was never an issue with these engines (despite the early anemic offerings), it's reliability when hot rodded that has been the issue with the 2V & 3V engines. Until they are built they cannot handle power adders reliably. Hopefully they have learned that people do hot rod their vehicles and it's in their best interest to put parts in that take some abuse- not stupidity mind you, but some typical abuse via bolt ons and mild power adders.

 

You have to admit though, the new 5.0 is finally something to get excited about, you have to love the dimensions, hardware and spec. sheet. Put one in a base GT and I'll Take one in Grabber blue with silver ghost stripes........To keep with the original 5.0 and to pay it the proper respect, let's call it the "LX" and bring back the 5.0 fender badge. Selling one for $13K like in 1988 wouldn't hurt either!!!! You could even afford a takeout for your Z.. Offer a police interceptor LX as competition for the Hemis too while I'm dreaming (even more pullout options for your Z car!)

[sulla]

Now lets see if the rumors turn out to be true about the twin turbo 5.0 GT500 for 2012. All the other rumors there were right so hope this one is to. http://www.motorauthority.com/blog/1035968_report-2012-ford-mustang-gt500-to-get-twin-turbo-road-runner-v-8

[JoeyICU]

if the modular motors had the displacements the LS motors have seen, i think they could easily make the same or more power, plus it would have that sweet sweeping powerband modular motors tend to have

 

im not sure why you think the early NPI motors had reliability issues with alot of power, i have known of many people running boost on the motors and who had years doing just fine running 6-12psi of S/C boost with no major failures to speak of. Another popular thing to do was to take an npi bottom end and running the PI heads/Cams/Intake manifold, they offered considerablly higher CFM flow vs npi, and the swap on top of a NPI bottom end yielded a C/R of 10.8 to 1, so it was an awesome N/A motor. Alot of people made really fast cars from that combo, and they handled spray well to, even with the hypertunic pistons.

 

Neo, i suggested the Mark 8 motors because they are more plentiful then the cobra motors, and less a few things, are almost identically spec'd, so bang for buck factor goes up

[NeoTokyo]

Well 281ci is rather low but they do very well none the less.

The new 5.0L engine is a step in the right direction.

The 330ci 5.4L is the next best thing, but it is very expensive to get an aluminum version of this engine, the Ford GT (SuperCar) being the absolute best version of this engine. This is also a larger engine and I dont know how well it would swap into any Z car.

 

Now for next year (2011) an all new 6.2L will be offered in the SVT Raptor F-150 that is said to offer at least 500hp. It will be an SOHC design but if this is a mod engine (And it is) You will be able to slap a set of Ford GT or GT500 heads on it and have the largest DOHC Ford Mod motor around.

 

You will of course need a custom intake for this or just Supercharge it, but I am betting that the CR is going to be pretty high on it.

 

I am also betting that the 6.2L is going to be a Cast Iron block instead of an Aluminum design, but I really hope and wish that it will be aluminum.

 

Ford is catching us with the cube race, but they are also showing that they dont need to be the biggest as far as engines go to make similar or more horsepower.

 

As long as we dont see some really bad stuff going down Dec. 21st 2012 I think we will end up seeing a 6.2L in a GT500 by at least 2014.

Edited January 4, 2010 by NeoTokyo
There's no replacement for displacement!!!!!!

[Guest Gr8White]

if the modular motors had the displacements the LS motors have seen, i think they could easily make the same or more power

 

If a frog had wings....

 

I think we are getting off of subject again. Once one of the good tuners out there get their hands on the new engine, they will know in short order whether the new engine can handle hot rodding. Time will tell, as always. Call any of these guys now and state that you are planning to slap 12psi onto a stock 4.6 and the first thing they will tell you is "build the motor first and put some real pistons in it". Let's hope that the new 5.0 doesn't garner the same response.

[NeoTokyo]

I read some good news today; Ford HAS used pressed in Cast Iron liners in the new 5.0L Coyote. This info is from a Ford Press release.

 

For me this is great because now we can bore this engine when we stroke it.

We can also sleeve it now too; before when I read that it was a sprayed in liner that left some doubt to as how much meat there was in the sleeves. If there was a sufficient amount of material it could have been sleeve, but no need to worry about that now.

[NeoTokyo]

If a frog had wings....

 

I think we are getting off of subject again. Once one of the good tuners out there get their hands on the new engine, they will know in short order whether the new engine can handle hot rodding. Time will tell, as always. Call any of these guys now and state that you are planning to slap 12psi onto a stock 4.6 and the first thing they will tell you is "build the motor first and put some real pistons in it". Let's hope that the new 5.0 doesn't garner the same response.

 

 

Well what about the 6.2L SOHC that will be in the 2011 F150 Raptor? Even the 5.4L can be sleeved and stroked to 6.0L. Granted these are wider engines, and heavier with Cast Iron blocks (aside from Aluminum 5.4L blocks) these are still great performers and are on par with most LSx engines.

 

Now I cant say that the High CR 5.0L can take instant boost, infact I highly doubt it can take more than 4-6psi on 91oc but that has been the current trend since about 1993.

 

Boost has varied in GT's along the years based on many variables from fuel used to stock compression. In the 94/95 GT there are people running around with Kenne Bell Blowzilla's pushing 8-10-14psi on stock internals.

 

Pistons have been a weak link in the GT's (Among powdered cracked cap rods) since 1993. Cobra's of course get better parts.

 

This isnt gospel as there are many exceptions in building boost on a stock engine. Octane is also a limiting factor, E85 is becoming very popular as it is 105oc and has a nice cooling affect.

 

It does however have a downside in that it takes 40-50% more fuel to make the same power. You also need an updated system that wont be harmed by this fuel.

 

The last 5.0L's to be used experianced core shift at 500+rwhp and started to fail, so many times it wasnt the internals that failed but the block itself.

 

 

 

 

 

So you are right in that we just wont know how good this new engine is till people get their hot little hands on it and start pushing it to its limits. Matching this engine with forged rods and forged lower CR forged pistons will make a boost beast!