Owen Posted May 18, 2001 Share Posted May 18, 2001 I have a Summit model, slightly different picture below. I have: A = BATT, MSD power, E6K power, etc. B = IGN switch C = starter I assume the voltage coming out of C is only present as long as the IGN switch is turned? Otherwise the starter would be spinning the whole time, right? Does a switched 12V mean the ACC function of the electrical circuit, ie. it turns off when the key is turned to OFF? Can the unlabeled terminal on the solenoid be used for this? I think I screwed up my wiring. Owen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest zfan Posted May 19, 2001 Share Posted May 19, 2001 Owen, Ive got a ford remote selenoid just like yours, also using MSD 6a box. Your wiring sounds correct with the exception of the ground next to B terminal Ive got a ground running to fire wall of that post. Yes the (A) post is always hot. The © terminal is only hot when ignition is engaged to start when you release key in ignition it closes after starting. One other thing, the ford remote selenoid or summit type, same thing have been known to have duds. I went thru two to get a good one and my Dad has had the same problem. My daughters 65 stang also has eaten two in one year. By the way any auto shop carries them for approx. 10 bucks. Hope this helps. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted May 19, 2001 Share Posted May 19, 2001 I've not seen that 'b' terminal used in the diagrams I've seen of the Ford contactor (solenoid) used with a chevy starter. The C terminal goes to the starter Large lug (which has a jumper to the S terminal as you know). The wire that used to go to the S terminal on the Starter does the same on the Ford contactor (solenoid). Thats the diagram I've seen. If you need a ignition power wire, you could always use the one that powers the HEI (if your using a HEI, or one that powers the MSD or whatever your running as a ignition, I believe its Datsuns old black/yellow wire in the early Z that used to power the distributor) as its hot when switched on. I looked at the summit kit as well as Mr Gaskets kit and will probably just get a ford contactor from a early mustang or something and a extra battery cable with lug ends. My car heat sinks, but because I'm running pretty low compression, if I stay on the key, it'll catch. Did I mention how much I thoroughly detest wiring? Lone [ May 19, 2001: Message edited by: lonehdrider ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Owen Posted May 19, 2001 Author Share Posted May 19, 2001 I knew I had it wrong...But I've already got a bunch of stuff attached to the C terminal (BATT) gonna have to do some more rewiring I guess. Thanks. Owen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Frank280z Posted May 19, 2001 Share Posted May 19, 2001 I hear ya' Lone!!! Heat soak sucks. Try coping after relocate,running 01 welding cable back to...What would make a better door stop AC Dedco Battery. Soon to be replaced with a red top Optima and an added relay to the Datsun ignition wiring. I don't mind the wiring...It's one of those things that you know is for the better. I guess??? Where did you guys mount your selenoids? Mine is under the rh inspection panel. Above the 6al....Frank Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Owen Posted May 19, 2001 Author Share Posted May 19, 2001 My solenoid is in the same place as yours, under the right inspection lid. I was wondering, if I got vented ones, would there be a safety problem with water getting on the wiring... The 6AL is mounted inside the ****pit on the wall of the right passenger footwell. One day I'm gonna make a wiring diagram for my own car since it's a rats nest. Almost makes me appreciate the stock wiring. I'm almost tempted to rip it all out, but no...forget it! Owen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLKMGK Posted May 19, 2001 Share Posted May 19, 2001 This is good info guys, seems I won't need the Summit kit after all How are the "bump" switches wired that the Painless kits use? Oh, the '88 5.0 Mustang relay looks pretty much just like the one you pictured I think so no need to get one made for a really old model. Will be trying to wire this with a remote solenoid (contactor) myself. Am using a starter from a 1995 Impalla SSCaprice 350 and am puzzling over wiring it up. Since I've not got starter bolts yet it's not been a big issue (snicker). Water on the solenoid shouldn't be too big a deal BUT if the casing ever cracks (mine did) the water will cause rust on the piston and a REALLY hard to track starting problem . This was on a car that seldom got water under the hood too so added water might not have changed anything. Never did figure out how it cracked in the first place... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Modern Motorsports Ltd Posted May 20, 2001 Share Posted May 20, 2001 Ford HD remote solenoids available at any local auto parts place. Have them look up the one used for the biggest 80's ford truck or similar....Mine was <$10 AIR, and is working fine 4 years later. I placed it on pass. side fender well where my 000 batt. lead comes thru my firewall and just angle up slightly for the large soldered lug to bolt on it without any twist etc. OOO leads don't bend too sharply. Spend some dough on O or OO welding leads for battery cable and solder on end lugs IMO. Then on the 'burned' edges use dielectric silicona and wrap with ee tape and it'll NEVER corrode or cause a trouble. That's one thing I didn't want to have to doubt or correct later on. If only the whole car I'd built like that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLKMGK Posted May 30, 2001 Share Posted May 30, 2001 FWIW - I picked up a solenoid for an '88 5.0 Mustang. It has only three lugs - two big, one small. Ought to be cake to wireup and it's pretty small too. It says it's "diode protected" on it (shrug). Very cheap I might add. As I understand it I wire the S terminal on the starter to the HOT lug, then run a wire from that lug to one side of this "contactor" Will hav to puzzle out which Datsun wire goes to the small lug but I'm pretty sure the JTR book has this down cold for me. My battery lead isn't as large as some others so we'll see how it all works out. Still need to find a good ground strap with bolt holes on both ends. The ones I've found so far all have battery terminals on one side (grr). Anyway, this sucker is smaller than the one pictured, mounts flat, should be dirt simple to wire up, and is less than $20. P.S. Since the stock Chevy soleniod is still used on the starter I'm a bit confused as to why this helps anything. Have I missed somehting? Do we bypass the stock piece in some fashion I've not noticed? TNX! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Owen Posted May 30, 2001 Author Share Posted May 30, 2001 With mine, the instructions told me to connect the two hot jumpers together on the starter. Owen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pparaska Posted May 30, 2001 Share Posted May 30, 2001 BLKMGK, on the 240Z, the black w/ yellow strip wire that used to go to the starter engage terminal (blade) goes to the small "B" terminal in the pic above. The stock solenoid still is used - it still needs to pull in the bendix and gear to the flywheel. You need to run a wire from the large terminal on the starter solenoid where the batter cable attaches to the small terminal that the starter switch usually activates. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Modern Motorsports Ltd Posted May 31, 2001 Share Posted May 31, 2001 Well it does help if you have a heat soak problem reducing the current/shot to the bendix/etc. Gm being on the starter it can heatsoak and that greatly increases the ee requirements to pull activate the starter. Ford solenoid isn't hot and can put thru current more efficiently in simple terms. http://www.chevelles.com/techref/tecref4.html I had serious troubles and it cured it, a heat blanket on my starter helped a little but the solenoid was the main ticket for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Owen Posted May 31, 2001 Author Share Posted May 31, 2001 Would you still recommend a heat shield for the starter even when using the remote solenoid? Owen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLKMGK Posted May 31, 2001 Share Posted May 31, 2001 I think a heat shiled might be a good idea. Air gap is even better but a shield in between - with air on both sides - would probably really help. I've seen some blankets that wrap around but IMO that's asking to hold heat IN too! The one I've seen pictures of that looks best is a stainless sheet looking thing. Damn, I knew I forgot to order something from Jegs! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Modern Motorsports Ltd Posted May 31, 2001 Share Posted May 31, 2001 The heat shield certainly can't hurt. Simplest by far IMO (as none of the metal shields that leave huge gaps fit my location) is a single piece of heat resistant fire wrap (same as heat shield wrap kit) with large hose clamps to secure it to the starter. I used two large ducting hose clamps I had and wrapped each twice around to do the job. Worth mentioning just so you're aware is if this ever got soaked with oil it would be a fire risk with electrical right their..not a concern of mine till I notice that monster leak I know air gap type heat shields are preferred but wrapping your starter can't really seal any heat in as it is NOT a source of heat at all and is only remotely connected to your hot engine. In my case and I'm sure others I have the engine above/beside and frame rail beside and then exhaust below with firewall behind so no airflow their...I can't blame it for rebelling at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pparaska Posted May 31, 2001 Share Posted May 31, 2001 quote: Originally posted by Ross C: Well it does help if you have a heat soak problem reducing the current/shot to the bendix/etc. Gm being on the starter it can heatsoak and that greatly increases the ee requirements to pull activate the starter. Ford solenoid isn't hot and can put thru current more efficiently in simple terms. http://www.chevelles.com/techref/tecref4.html But as that site points out: quoteThis set-up DOES NOT make the GM solenoid any cooler. It just gives it a better current supply. Anything that can be done to shield the starter from the header heat would be beneficial. There are several heat shields on the market and even GM makes one. That's all it does. The solenoid still has to pull in the bendix, and it still gets heat soaked. Like the site also says, the GM solenoid also still provides current to the starter motor. I'm confused as to how it can help. Current still goes through the GM solenoid contactor contacts. All the Ford "solenoid" (really just a contactor) does is interrupt current to the starter/GM solenoid when the car isn't being started. ...Ohh. Now I read it closer. It says: quoteHere is where a problem is encountered. It takes a fair amount of current to energize the stock solenoid when hot. Due to the amount of resistance in the wiring set-up, it may not be possible to supply the required current. This is where the Ford solenoid comes into play. So all that this circuit and Ford part does is let the S terminal on the GM solenoid/contactor get more current when it's hot, IF the wire feeding it was (probably) too small to begin with. I have one anyway . BTW, I have a gear reduction starter and the (Moroso?) air gap heat sheild. Pretty nice piece - it's double walled with an air gap, and there's the air gap between it and the starter as well. Only problem is it covers the top and side of the starter and doesn't sheild it from heat radiating from the exhaust pipe below. Looks like I might have to customize it or put some reflective heat tape on the bottom of the starter. [ May 31, 2001: Message edited by: pparaska ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLKMGK Posted May 31, 2001 Share Posted May 31, 2001 I understand the wiring of it although Pete's wire color will help greatly but I still don't understand WHY this is effective. HOW does this solve a problem? We still use the stock solenoid right? How does a second one give us benefit? I'm going to do it as it's obviously proven effective for others but I'd liek to better understand why it helps if the same stock stuff still gets juice... Will probably find a mount for it tonight and begin wiring - woohoo! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pparaska Posted May 31, 2001 Share Posted May 31, 2001 I'm not sure what it helps, or if it does. You're right, the starter solenoid is still used to both engage the bendix drive and to act as a contactor for the starter motor. If you bypassed the contactor part and fed current to the motor when you energized the starter solenoid, it'd probably grind the teeth as it engaged. One thing that helps is to have a place to tie all your positive wires to away from the starter . Seems I used to know why this was better (using the Ford contactor) but CRS is taking over my memory . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dankinzle Posted May 31, 2001 Share Posted May 31, 2001 How about one with an exhaust clamp and some 16 guage steel bolted to your exhaust pipe. Just thinking of cheap alternatives. Block the heat from the source Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pparaska Posted May 31, 2001 Share Posted May 31, 2001 That ought to work, especially if you make it double walled with an air gap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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