blueovalz Posted February 6, 2002 Share Posted February 6, 2002 What's the scoop on titanium valves. Are they a strictly race option, or can they also be used for the weekend street car. I know very little about the use of titanium for valves and would like a little more info. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZROSSA Posted February 6, 2002 Share Posted February 6, 2002 Well, I was going to show you the Del West web site but the don apear to have one. Here is a adress and phone # Del West Engineering 28128 west livingston Valencia, Ca 91355 ph 661 295 5700 fax 661 295 8300 I think price is the major reason they are not used. You would need a different material for your valve guides as the ti will gall with the usual stuff. Honda and others now use it for there rods on hi po engines. It would be nice to have that ford of yours up near 8000 rpm. Better get some. Douglas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jens Posted February 6, 2002 Share Posted February 6, 2002 Some europeans use it on the street. The benefit is the weight like aluminium but strength close to stainless steel price$$$$. 15 year ago a rich man had a detomaso pantera made with several titanium parts and a turbo 1600 hp 427 sohc weighing only around 2200. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blueovalz Posted February 6, 2002 Author Share Posted February 6, 2002 I was familar with some of the commonly known properties of Titanium, and it seemed that the only down side was price (which is a big down side). The valve guide area was interesting info. I will have to investigate that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scottie-GNZ Posted February 6, 2002 Share Posted February 6, 2002 Standard equipment in 911s or at least they were when I had my 79. Titanium alloy, sodium-filled to be exact and yes, they are PRICEY. Found out back in 89 when the timing chain jumped a couple of teeth at HARUMPHH RPMs and I bent all 6 exhaust valves . Back then they were $46/each. Broke all 6 rocker arms but did not even scratch the pistons. Still scratching my head on that one after all these years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest zthang43 Posted February 24, 2002 Share Posted February 24, 2002 these things are quite expensive, as Scottie points out, but I think a lot of people don't understand their true function. The sodium filled titanium valves help to keep combustion chamber temps lower, thus making it possible to produce more hp. The sodium (it is in a liquid state, from what I learned) sloshes up and down inside the valve as the valve goes up and down. When the sodium contacts the bottom end of the valve (combustion chamber end) it absorbs some of the heat that the valve face has absorbed from the combustion process. Then, as the valve moves, the sodium sloshes up to the top of the valve, where it is bathed in *relatively* cold engine oil, and much of the combustion chamber's heat is absorbed back out of the sodium. A very crude explanation, but you get the general idea. At least, that is the way my heat transfer professor explained it to me back in college. I assume that titanium and sodium are used partly for their heat transfer properties ie. their ability to absorb or shed heat energy quickly compared to other materials. So, given the purpose of the valves, and their ability to help produce a little more hp in certain situations, it is easy to see why they are not commonly used on street engines. Considering their cost vs. the small hp increase on a street engine, they just aren't practical, since a normal street engine (or even a mild hi-po engine that most of us are used to) just doesn't need the heat quenching properties of titanium valves. On an extremely high output race motor where heat is a much bigger enemy, the titanium valves can be very useful or even necessary. Sorry if that was hard to understand; often I don't explain things very clearly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZROSSA Posted February 24, 2002 Share Posted February 24, 2002 Hey Zthang, You can get sodium valves in metals other then ti. The factories used standeard valve material and put the sodium in them. I dont know the difference between ti and less expensive valve materials when it come to transfering heat but i bet if you talked to race engine builders and designers it was a weight reduction they had in mind. Mabye Monsieur Grumpy Vette could shed some lite in this direction, And while your at it G.V., what do the indy and f1 fellas use to deal with crankcase pressure. Cheers Douglas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted February 24, 2002 Share Posted February 24, 2002 I had some titanium scrap sheet metal to abuse one time.I really worked it over and was not much impressed. The stuff was not all that different from aluminum in cutting and working but had an extremely higher melting point in regards to aluminum and more like a steel melting point. I found aluminum road signs were as tough and just as durable in strength.(I did not say that) I imagine there is a very small percentage of titanium in titanium alloy valves to make any significnt weight loss at the expense of strengh and durability. I would suggest the titanium is added for high temperature purposes (light weight and heat resistant qualities). About the only noticeable effect or advantage in installing sodium filled titanium valves in a street/strip application is a lighter bank account..... but just rolling the words off your tounge "sodium filled titanium alloy valves" is impressive.Will look good on a vehicle resume! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scottie-GNZ Posted February 24, 2002 Share Posted February 24, 2002 Hey BB, note that my incident was back in '89 and if I recall, some of the older 2.0L stuff was more expensive. Ironically it looks no different than a $10 Chevy valve. No titanium glitter or sodium oozing from it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted February 25, 2002 Share Posted February 25, 2002 I don't know where Scottie got his Porsche Sodium filled titanium valves for $47.00 each. I too had to replace several on 1968 911 and they were $97.63 each new from the dealer. (the only place available) It was cheaper to buy two cylinder heads used with good valves than replace my old ones. I think the advantage of using light weight valves is you can run less spring pressure therefore you don't hammer the valve seats, not to mention cutting down the reciprocating weight of the valve train (='s higher rpm's)and of course the cooling properties. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted February 26, 2002 Share Posted February 26, 2002 Hey Scottie you are correct the older Porsches parts do cost more (DUH!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Azel Posted February 26, 2002 Share Posted February 26, 2002 My '91 Q45 comes from the factory with sodium valves. A good friend of mine, Tom has been researching, guesstimating and completely dissecting the engine so he can safely run a Vortech blower (with the way he drives, I'd bet the engine will live a very short life) in the near future. The block is suprising robust, with your usual forged crank, 6 bolt mains, girdled main caps but the inherant weakness lies in the light-duty cast pistons and guess what? The sodium valves... Oddly enough, the VH45DE's equipped with the sodium valves actually produced more power (6hp) than the motors that weren't so equipped. An Infiniti guru attributed this to valves' efficiency in dissipating heat. The problem is that titanium valves have been proven to be a much more suitable choice in forced-induction motors, at least in the Q45's case. Running moderate boost required upgrading not on the valves themselves but also the valve springs to heavier weight pieces to prevent valve-float. It was found out that sodium valves with upgraded valve springs tend to distort into a cupped shape. It was not recommended that sodium valves were used with valve springs that measured more than 165lb. valve springs. Also was told that since ti valves are lighter there's less rotating loss and likewise thermal loss. Even Infiniti 4.5L motors evolved from the Sodium-valved early 90's VH45DE to the new 2002Q motor that has titanium valves. This motor can rev nearly 1000RPM higher and produces 340hp as opposed to the 278 of the old with nothing more than modular update, lightened parts and moly-coating. Here's an interesting experience, a buddy of mine owns the same exact car. He neglected updating his chain guides and at 157K BOOOM, the chains slipped some teeth and the valves slammed. The valves were deformed and some separated at the seats. However, a guy in Japan boosting the same motor to 12PSI was plagued by the same chain guide problem except he had custom titanium valves, when the chain slipped the vavles themselves were lodged into the valve ports but luckily he was able to use them again! Now that is a testament to strength. I'm sorry I'm ranting BUT my opinion is that in a extreme forced-induction application, ti valves a much better bet than anything else. Hope this helps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oltmann Posted February 26, 2002 Share Posted February 26, 2002 Do titanium valves have to have sodium in them? The thermal conductivity of Ti is a little lower than SS, but I would think in an N/A watercooled engine you shouldn't need to worry about that. You certainly don't have to worry about the Ti melting If I wanted to build a high-rpm motor I would definately go for them. Seems like they are great for a race engine and proven in street engines. Almost no down$ide. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZROSSA Posted February 26, 2002 Share Posted February 26, 2002 Hey guys, Why dont one of you who lives in ca. call del west and find out whats what? I would myself but for the difference in time and expence. O, and did i tell I was going to the Melbourne G.P. for a week. Douglas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clint78z Posted February 26, 2002 Share Posted February 26, 2002 Yes several benifits of Ti with sodium filled 1. Lighter means quicker response, lower spring pressure needed for high rpm which gives more hp. 2. Stronger has a higher yield strength and won't deform as easliy 3. Sodium allows better heat transfer, reducing chances of preigntion from hot valve face, and more consistent seating angle due to less thermal expansion. A solid Ti valve will be stronger, but will be heavier and won't transfer heat as well. Nice valve mod there Scottie, looks like the spring couldn't quite close it in time. I bet it was fun just before though Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scottie-GNZ Posted February 27, 2002 Share Posted February 27, 2002 Nice valve mod there Scottie Thanks, Clint. I have 5 more just like that one . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
biohzrd Posted February 28, 2002 Share Posted February 28, 2002 i know that ti valves are the only thing the nascar guys use. they usually put more abuse on a motor in 500 miles then we would in 5000 and have no real problems to speak of. if your looking for a cheaper sorce for them try ebay. i've seen complete sets of them go for $65.00. they are used and you probly need to get them machined to fit but thats dirt cheap in my opinion. i get alot of my parts from a friend who is an engine builder for joe gibbs racing. they will run an engine on a dyno and if it doesn't make the #'s they wanted they rip it apart and scap the parts. just some more info for ya'll Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted March 1, 2002 Share Posted March 1, 2002 ..just to note.. if anyone is by any chance "holding out" on a good source (other than ebay, as bio suggested), I'd certainly like to know. New valvetrain is in my near future and if the benefits outweigh the cost difference (but how often do they actually do? *ahem* ball-bearing turbo's *cough*) I'd certainly go with them. I guess i'm just a victem of the "well if I'm... I might as well.." bug. Aren't we all though? -980mak Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Azel Posted March 1, 2002 Share Posted March 1, 2002 Originally posted by 980mak:..just to note.. if anyone is by any chance "holding out" on a good source (other than ebay, as bio suggested), I'd certainly like to know. -980mak If custom valves is what you're looking for: try Ferrea. They have all sorts of materials including ti. Friends of mine have used them in the past and swear by their valves. Supposedly have great customer service as well. Check out their website at www.FERREA.com. Their site is very informative and even has custom specs sheet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted March 4, 2002 Share Posted March 4, 2002 Originally posted by Scottie-GNZ: quote: Nice valve mod there Scottie Thanks, Clint. I have 5 more just like that one . Very cool, I get it, the valves are offset to allow larger ports around the valve guides. Pretty trick... Regards, Lone Ps: Sodium filled valves have been around quite a long time, I'm thinking at least the 50's in racing engines (might even have been back in air craft engines I donno). Titanium might be a newer slant on it, but for street engines without 5 digit RPM's, I think cross drilled brakelines are more useful. Regards, Lone Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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