brokebolt
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Posts posted by brokebolt
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It's been stated before, cost vs. performance. And you don't get something without giving up something. Slow corner; SU vs. Trippple, you can set up a Trippple to preform there; but you loose somewhere else. You have to tune the conditons through sacrifice and gains. No carb is "best in all conditions", only EFI can give better than carb performance.
Ever seen a Hilborn guy tune, I'll take my Trippples or even my Bell top SU's over that ball of wax. But I'll bet my money on the Hilborn guy in the 1/4 mile.
Mike
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If your not making enough HP on the low end than your not set up correctly, with either induciton. Trippples can produce more power on the low end and pull hard thought the RPM's if set up correctly. The real difference you will see with Tripples over SU's is the Trippple set up will be more tuneable. I ran Bell top SU's for years on a 3.1L engine, good response but no top end performance at all. I couldn't get enough fuel to flow through the needle, nozzle combination. Yes, the Dashpot with heavy oil (30 Wt.) did give the needed accelerator pump fuel action but on the top end it ran lean, even with custom machined needles and nozzles; note the carb bodies were unmodified. With the Trippple 40 set up, I had much better low end and even better top end performance.
Story:
With the SU's from a rolling idle if I punched it, the tires might squeal a little bit, and pull hard to about 5000 RPM's but then I could tell a tappered off effect to 6000 and some real effort to reach 7000 RPM's. With the Dellorto 40's I ran, same idle roll it would light up the rear and I had to feather the throttle a bit to get them hooked back up and than the old heap pulled hard thought 7000. The MSD shift light is set at 7000 and I was well into the light before shifting from first to second.
Moral:
If your Trippples are not tuned correctly than you will never see the performance and your induction will run like a tired old mule.You should see a perfromance advantage with Trippples over SU's thoughtout the RPM's, if you don't your not tuning them correctly.
Conclusion:
I like the SU's great drivers carb but not as much performance potential as a well tuned set of Trippples. And I concure that if not set up correctly the Trippple set up isn't worth it's cost.
Trippple carbs; six main jets, six emultion tubes, six idle jets, six air correction jets, six idle jet holders, six pump jets, six chokes and six auxiliary ventures.
Twin SU's; only two nozzles and two needles.
Mike
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I'll toss in my $0.02.
If your looking for an easy to tune carb SU's are the ticket, if your looking for potential power use a Trippple set up. That's it in a nutshell.
But you did mention some mods down the road, if your interested in a one time investment, than maybe you might want to look closer at the Trippple set up. Yes as mentioned the SU can be bored out to run with the big dogs but a choked up Trippple can be tuned for smaller displacement engines and than when the mods are done opened up for bigger and better engine mods, like cams headers and such.
Personally if your looking at perfomance I'd recommend a performance oriented carb like the Tripple carb set up. Yes SU's can be modified to preform but the Trippple carb has those mods built into their design so no modification is needed, you only need tuning parts to do so. I believe that the Trippple set up is more tunable than the SU's but that statement may spark a debate. What I mean by "more tunabiltiy" is that the Tripple set up has more specific controll over a paticular RPM range though the use of the tuning parts. SU's have controll over the dashpot only which in-turn controlls the other parameters of the carb.
Mike
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Coleman propane torch tank!!! Thanks, it's been buggin' me for a while now. I knew I'd seen it before. Thanks for the post Mike, no more long night tossing and turning for me.
Hey Mike Kelly, thanks for the kind works. Nice to see a Zguy that knows his stuff.
Mike
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In the April 23, 2004, issue number 13 of National Dragster, on page 74-76 written by Evan J. Smith is an excellent article in the "Racing Technology" section titled "Manifold Destiny-Part 1" it is about manifolds. He discusses many things, one thing I like is his discussion on resonance. This topic could be more in-depth but the point he makes is very important and valid for anyone running a "Cannon" manifold. I know this topic has been over done but I now have current independent sources that I can site to aid in the argument over the Cannon manifold issue. On the "long runner" manifolds, it is better suited for low end power. I believe most people think their tach reads 7000 RPM's redline they should buy a manifold that has best flow characteristics at that RPM. I beleive most poeple want "out of the hole power" not top-end performance. The Cannon manifold "can" help with this low end power issue. Also twin exhaust pipes help, run them all the way to the back of the car and Y-em' just before they exit the pipes. I have been preiching for years that if your a daily driver Z guy, the Cannon manifold is a good choice. Redline also makes a "Cannon" style manifold with almost the exact same dimensions. I personnaly run a TWM, for cleanance issues. I see postings all the time how "Cannon is junk":roll:, I can feel my jaw tense up everytime I read tha stuff. Happy trails!
Mike
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I was just emulsed in a e-mail session with a guy about this very topic. Here is my $0.02. Fuel return lines are nice becuase they keep a fresh fuel supply at the carb inlets. Yes most fuel pumps are a rotary vien pump design and yes fuel is used to lubricate the viens as they operate. If you dead head the pump than the fuel must release pressure by by-passing the vien. This "can" cause wear and "lead" to premature pump failure. Also if you use a oil cooler and run the fuel through it before the carbs this can cool the fuel before it is feed to the carbs and the unused cooler fuel can return to the tank, helping to keep the tank cooler. While I've mentioned it, Z's are the worst design for gas tank temps, all the engine heat and exhaust pipe heat hits the fuel tank dead on. I like a cool can before the carbs to help combat this, but who drives around with a ice chest full of ice and a aluminium coil running though it anyway. Mike
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Mark, thanks for the response and the offer. I will definety think about it.
Steve, thanks for the response and the offer. Say...you living so close to me would be nice to take a peak at what your done there. Looks nice, is it road worthy yet? I'm still in the research phase of this project, still trying to get some input on handling issues and perfromance. Do you have anything to report on those topics? I'm curious as to anyone that is running camber/caster plates and really big meats. I'd think that top mounts would be the way to go with lower adjustable links. That would mean custom jobs on the transverse links and such. Anyone seen any locations for that type of stuff or better yet used any? I know AZcar provides the top to bottom stuff on the coilover area and links.
Mike
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What are you looking to get out of them? They are much smaller than I had hoped for but I'm willing to entertain offers. I've got a few leads from HybridZ members that I'll check out. And thanks for the tips guys. I'm considering the monster flares, I've done custom body work in the past, I used to work in a body shop when I was in college. It can get real "fun" working custom stuff sometimes. Especially when you make a mistake. Doh!!
Mike
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Ron,
Ya Dandos, that's the name. Thanks for the tip on Les I'll give him a buzz on the telly.
Mike
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Did a search but the new format is a bit odd for me, I'm used to the old one, anyhow.
Anyone know where to get real big pre-fabed fender flares? I was considering 10" fronts and 15" rears. I know "Dandito's" in the bay area had them a few years back. I was thinking about creating the "Bob Sharp" look only in solid Black.
Also considering making adjustable rear transverse links and front suspension geometry similiar to what "A-Z-Car" is selling. Any input would be nice to fuel this discussion. Any one done this set up? Any Pro's con's on handleing and performance?
Mike.
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Do a search using author on this forum and my log in. You should find 9 postings some will contain info on junk yard parts that you can get that will bolt on to your Z. Go here for a quick look.
http://hybridz.org/nuke/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=19020&highlight=
I've been passing around sections of my notes page for a few years now. Use the info that I have posted as you like. Here is a link to the page that has all the same info as above with out the discussion on page 6.
http://www.cardomain.com/memberpage/496289
Mike
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Go here,
http://www.racetep.com/ztripdcoe.html
I seen this pic and was inclinded to make my own. TWM does sell one and for what your getting it isn't a bad price. With parts and labor your would be lucky to get one made that cheap.
Mike
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Most you've gotten!?!?! Sounds to me like the trippple guys aren't being very information friendly (not a slam guys). I'll get some pics on my album this afternoon or tonight to show what my install looks like. I've seen your set up, wow looks like spaghetti under the hood.
Also I forgot, I removed the smog pump and related items. My headers have the injection ports for the smog pump but I removed the injector tubes and put a plug in the holes. A lot of smog equipment should be on the balance tube of the original manifold. The EGR on the balance tube was removed and my headers have no port for the pick up, well I did put one in to make the smog man happy.
I'm running a 1975-78 vaccum/mechanical advance distributer, with a MSD 6AL ignition. Long story short on smog, my car ran better number with no smog stuff than with everything that a 1973 car should have on it.
Go figure
. MikeHere is my page in progress:
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NO SMOG!?!? Ok in that case I run a PCV valve from the stock block vent to the second cylinder, a vaccum line of the sixth cylinder for the brake boost. My 73 has a fuel tank vaper collection in the back so I only need to connect the vent hose from this device in the engine bay to one of the air cleaners. I had to drill a hole and use brass nipples and such to mount this hose. The valve cover has a slip on hose clamped K&N filter and the other vent hose for the vapor recovery connects to the stock block vent. I use no other smog devices on my ride. Oh I'm running a trippple Dellorto 40 DHLA set up with 3.5 in. tall oval K&N filters on all three carbs, with a TWM manifold and EMPI air horns. The popular Cannon manifold (TWM does as well) has a boss for the PCV valve and the vacuum port is predrilled and tapped. If you are using the Cannon or TWM I suggest drilling and tapping the unused boss before mounting, even if you don't use them now, you can block them off with a 3/8" NPT plug. Plan ahead I like to think. Mike
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Buy a book or two to start. CB performance sells a weber tuning manual. I have the Dellorto tech book part number 101 and there is some good reference material in those books. Also check out speedpro's "How to build and power tune Weber & Dellorto DCOE and DHLA carburetors" by Des Hammill, Good side by side comparison on both carbs as well as information on specific parts and a "base line" tuning guide by component. It was the "How to..." book that sold me on the Dell's over Weber and Mikuni. HP Books aslo sells a weber book but that covers the whole Weber range, part number 774. Hayes aslo sells a Weber book but that too is full range book not DCOE specific. These carbs really are easy to tune once you know what each component does and how changing it changes the dynamics of the fuel/air ratios.
As for what you can keep and what you can remove depends on what smog stuff you need to clear the smog police. Any mods to the fuel delivery system is not legal, at least here in California.
Best of luck on the Trippple Weber's,
Mike.
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Ya my Z is an oven as well, especially with no interior to keep the hear off the floor boards from spillling in. I wrapped my 20 year old headers with 2 inch heat wrap. Made a big difference in both sound and heat. I then did the same to my bike as the right leg was always hotter the left one. Also big difference in sound and heat. On my car I'm running dual 2.5 inch from the headers to a 3.5 inch Y just behind the third member and end it with a 3.5 inch Supertrapp. I've considered Jet hot coatings but mild steel that old is like paper thin.
Mike
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I'll toss in my opinion. Yes engine dynamics does play a big roll in engine performance and fuel economy. If your looking for an easy to tune and reliable set up that provideds good fuel economy and reliable performance I always tell people to start with an early set of SU's (bell tops not the bucket tops). These carbs are relatively inexpensive, provide resonable power and good fuel economy. They still have parts readabily available so parts hunting for nozzles and needles isn't an issue. If your more leaning towards performance than a well tunes 4bbl is aslo good. Parts are cheap and avalibility is good. If your looking for maximum HP than tripple carbs are better. There is also the twin downdraft as an option and larger SU's can be adapted from a Jag. Price is also a factor as the performance level goes up so does the price tag.
Fuel usage on the SU's was around 19 MPG on a 3.1L with headers and 298 duration cam 44mm intake valve 35 exh. BUT if you opened it up and drove like a owned stock in a large refinery than it went down to about 12 MPG
The other inducitons I never drove them conservitely enough or used them as a daily driver long enough to get good MPG numbers, but with wide open throttle it was low like 7MPG.
Mike
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These look like a manifold and throttle body combo. TWM used to sell carb like throttle bodies that you could bolt on to a Cannon, Twm or Mikuni manifold. Looks like they are streamlining things a bit. Set up looks nice and I'm sure that performance is good. Been some discussion that six butterflies are not as good as one. Hey I say go what with ya like, if I had the cash maybe...well I'm not so
None for me.Mike
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I've run every N/A induction system on the Z car. The 4 barrel can run well if properly tuned. Manifold and parts are readily available for what ever avenue you go. Personnally I like the trippple sidedraft for performance but for economy nothing is better than a set of well tuned bell top SU's. I've even run the bucket top SU's with relatively good success, although they are a bit more to tinker with. The four barrel is a good choice for performance but I think that a stigma follows that type of carb. Remember Dyno numbers don't lie!
Mike
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If your really looking to save wieght don't install a exhaust system at all. Run the pipes so they dump just behind the front tire in the tire well area. One sharp 90 from the collector and than nothing. A bit loud but Performance vs. weight this is the best solution. I considered it but the noise was the limiting factor for me. A better solution would be building rectangle tube so they dumped just before the rear wheels and ran under the floor boards just behind the seats. This configeration would allow the use of mufflers and the thin profile of the pipe would allow the sleeper look most are looking for. Haven't found flat enough rectangle tubeing, so it would be real custom job. Just me $0.02.
Mike
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510six,
Heard of a six in a 510 never seen one. Nice plumbing on the nitrous. As for this topic my advice is start small and work up. Buddy had nitrous on this ride and poped the head first shot. Little bit too much.
Mike
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JohnC is right, the original nuts are crimped on into the cut out area of the end of the shaft. So what to do if you don't have a set of 280zx Nuts on hand and Napa can't order them for you? Do this.
First clean the shaft off the car with a good 4 inch hand grinder and a wire wheel or abrasive pad wheel to remove any bad areas on the shaft end. Next get a good rethread tool, M 20 X 1.50. I use one from my Snap-on set that I bought on-line RD-20. Next install the nut over the shaft and turn. I like to use tap-magic to help the tool glide over the threads. Unlike a die the rethread tool or thread restore tool will cram the remaining metal back into shape to help revitalize the old threads. If the metal will not comform back to shape the tool will remove it. A die will cut new threads in any metal that is there, their is a difference. This is only a fix to the issue of removing a nut that had not been properly preped before deinstallation. Am I am the worst person for not preparing the nut before removal.
Best of luck.
Mike
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For those that have the Toyota caliper this might be a good idea to use a larger diameter vented rotor and the same calipers they have bolted on now. But for the new guy wanting to upgrade his stuff the cost of Wilwood calipers is just about the same as the Toyota calipers, 300zx rotors and spacers.
As for the brackets to mount other calipers to large diameter aftermartket rotors it would be nice to see a front 300ZX four piston version adapted. They are aluminium and have the nice NISSAN stamped on the side. Oh rears would be nice too, aluminium, fit vented rotors, twin pistons and again NISSAN on the side.
Mike
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I think my logic went something like this;
Engine big and heavy needs much help to keep it from sagging front.
Nothing in rear, need soft to frimly plant power to road to make speed.
I feel that the softer spring allows the rear to recover from bumps better that a stiffer rear; relative to the front ofcourse. Back country roads are full of this bump and pot hole business. As for the fronts, I was thinking that if I stiffened the front the less plow with a slightly softer rear.
I'm running a stock 1973 7/8" rear sway bar and a big fat 1 1/8" front. All urethane with solid differential and transmission mounts. As soft as granit tile but fun on tight twisty motorways.
Mike
. Mike
None for me.
weber DCOE vs early 240z SU carbs
in 6 Cylinder Z Forums
Posted
I think we totally agreee, Trippples are best at high RPM's, SU's are best for a daily (the best MPG I ever got was 21 or so with the SU's, the worst was 8 or so). I like the comment about scaring children, but you forgot the small animals scurrying to their haven.
On a side not, I raced a 1/4 mile in my old heap wih SU's, the guy on the other side, 260 Z with Rebello tuned Trippple Weber DCOE 40's. I did win (yah me) but not by much. On another day, a 90ish Camero with a 350 was yet another barely win situation. Oh, but the best story of all was a 427 Chevelle. I was way quicker out of the hole with my SU's, but when the C.I.D. of that big block kicked in at about 3500...well we would rather forget that. But I do remember the California liceinse plate "66LICKS".
Mike