jmead
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Posts posted by jmead
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Awesome project you've got going there. Don't axles start shearing off at those hp levels? Do your controllers allow for a "standard" mode of driving and an "insane" mode?
I would love to see you drag race with a tesla. You have seen the white zombie datsun 1200 on youtube? It's got 2 electric motors joined together to double the hp.
Yeah, I'm very concerned about the axles snapping. To clarify the high-amp controller is a potential future upgrade, I just think it's cool that the motor has a practically unlimited power ceiling that can be achieved with a simple controller swap.
The power is precisely adjustable. You can dial in a maximum number of amps (torque), watts (power), volts (speed) all from a webpage based config screen. You can also adjust the ramp rate, which is probably the variable more important for axle life. I've got it set for 2000A/sec right now so full torque is gradually applied over 1/2 of a second. You can crank it all the way to 100,000A/sec but thats how you break stuff.
I'll definitely be racing it against my Tesla as soon as it's a little more complete. Next step is going to be pulling everything out to paint the engine bay. That and some more brackets and water-cooling tubing and it'll be pretty much done.
The White Zombie is fantastic. That's pretty much the car that got me into fast EVs years ago. Simple, light, crazy fast. John Wayland was years ahead of the rest of us.
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with right controler do you really need transmission?
It's direct drive. I don't see any good reason for a transmission, even if an engine had a linear torque curve and could make power from 0 rpms you'd still need a transmission to provide reverse. But motors will happily spin either direction.
And I'd never have been able to fit the motor so low and so far back with a transmission behind it.
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?????
Less power at the diff?
The differential is a gear reduction. It lowers speed (RPMS) and increases torque (ft-lbs)
1 ft-lb into the diff at 3.54rpm becomes 3.54 ft-lbs out at 1 rpm
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Ah, interesting. Is the plan to drag race or do short sprint events? Or just for cruising around town with the ability to smoke the tires at will? Or I suppose with your quick charge, it should be a matter of having an outlet at the destination.
All of the above I suppose. This is actually the first car I ever bought, so it has plenty of sentimental value. If nothing else I'd like to just keep it running and on the road. But seeing as it's the lightest of my EVs by a few thousand pounds it's the logical choice for motorsports. I'd like to try my hand at autocross, and drag racing could be fun too.
I've just recently come across a 4,000 amp controller which would give me 2,000 ft-lbs to the diff and 7,000 ft-lbs to the wheels at around 600hp. Fully tuneable to any level, and the precision control you get with a electric drivetrain really makes massive power plenty driveable even in the wet.
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Very cool, there is a local guy doing something similar in a zx, but the motor is nowhere near that big. Keep us posted! Would love to see what kind of mileage you get with this.
Thanks. The Z cars are a great platform for the same reason that people drop all kinds of crazy engines into them. Nice big engine bay, simple layout, not too many power accessories to complicate things.
When you say mileage do you mean range? I have a plan to bump the range up to around 160 miles or so on-demand. The batteries in it right now only hold about 10kwh, which would be 30-40 miles of range. They are built more for power than energy. But the great thing about electrical systems is they are so flexible and can be totally modular. I'm going to be building these "universal battery modules" that are super energy dense cells packed tight into a format that is easy to pick up and slide into different vehicles. One would power a riding mower for an hour. Two for a go kart or atv. 5 for a dune buggy or UTV. Being only 3" thick I think I can make the back of the datsun accept 10 or more. That would get me an extra 50kwh when needed, but none of the weight when not.
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Well I removed the engine, transmission, radiator, starting battery, exhaust, all the fluids as well as the gas tank. What does all that stuff weigh? I'll assume I removed about 700 pounds from the front and around 200 pounds from the rear (assuming the gas tank was holding fuel).
I've added around 600 pounds to the front, with the bulk of that shifted down and back substantially.
So in total I figure the car is perhaps 300 pounds lighter than stock.
The motor was originally from a 16,000 pound hyster forklift. I got a fantastic deal on it, along with a few others. Around $500/each. if you were to buy something like that new it would be around $5000. Getting the coupler machined to adapt the 29 spline 1.875" shaft to a 1350 u-joint cost about as much as the motor.
Though a Warp 9" motor that would typically be used in this type of conversion costs only $1800 new and weighs just 130 pounds. Even that would be more than capable of breaking the tires loose.
In fact you can't actually buy a motor this big. The next best thing is the Warp 13" which is 1/2" smaller (less diameter = less torque, more speed) and substantially shorter (again, less torque from less armature surface area)
I also just finished getting two of those 13.5" motors mounted between the frame rails in a Dodge Ram. One driving the front wheels and one driving the rear. Full time 4wd with no steering issues or surface limitations. Since they are wired in series I'm getting 1000 ft-lbs of torque to the axles per 1000amp of controller.
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So I've managed to shove an absolutely monstrous electric motor into my 76 280z. This isn't my first electric Z car, but it's different from my first in just about every possible way. For comparison the motor on top is the size I put in my first one, and on the bottom is the motor I've got in my 76 now.
Previously I kept the stock 4 speed transmission and fabricated an adapter plate to mount the 8" kostov motor. This time I dropped the transmission entirely and went direct drive. That allowed me to mount the motor deep into the transmission tunnel with just a little bit projecting into the engine bay.
I've completely blocked off the radiator opening with a steel sheet.
It's outfitted with high-output lithium batteries that are rated to 15C discharge which is 1,500 amps. Each one of those stacks of 4 batteries is ~65v fully charged and ~40v when empty. They're also rated to charge at up to 6C which would be a full charge in just 10 minutes.
The controller is a Soliton 1 that will do 1000 amps continuous at up to 310 volts. At full output thats 400HP but I'm running at a lower voltage than that. I've yet to turn up the power but preliminary testing shows it will break the tires loose on dry pavement even with my brakes dragging.
Though if I find one for sale I'd love to get my hands on a 3000 amps soliton shiva. That would take me from 500 ft-lbs to the diff up to 1,500 ft-lbs. The motor is capable of way more than what I'm feeding it now.
Now that the mechanical stuff is done I'll be pulling it all apart to paint the engine bay and battery racks. And I'm going to need to address my brakes and headlight/turn signal wiring before I can get it inspected and on the road. I'm definitely going to go with rear discs but I'm trying to decide between the maxima caliper/rotors or the wildwood setup.
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Hey man are you selling this?
I have been browsing the forums looking for the right car for me. Either way, sick car.
Already been sold.
Now I'm working on a 52 Ford F-1 and a 76 280z that will put the 240z to shame. (800 ft-lbs vs 250, 300lbs of LiFePO4 vs 700lbs of lead, etc). Updates will follow when I've got more to show.
Ultimately I want to start building cars for people, so if you're serious PM me and we'll talk.
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I've got a complete running l28 for sale, 100% intact wiring harness, see my thread here;
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and John's Datsun 1200 (White Zombie)
theres also going to be the wayland invitational electric drags out at PIR, July 24-25.
some of the cars showing are the KillaCycle, White Zombie, the Crazy Horse Pinto, Several Teslas, Tango, '32 Ford, Green Tea Model T, LiIon Insight.
Of course, I wouldn't want to imply that the Tesla is the first electric car with guts....John was pushing the limits of EV tech back when I was still playing on the playground. He may very well be responsible for my obsession (too long ago to tell)......but anyways his website http://www.plasmaboyracing.com/ is probably my favorite of all. Definitely worth a look....more impressive than anything I've got to show anyone.
Man I'd love to check that out in person. Too bad Oregon couldn't be further away from me unless it were in another country. Still, I'm checking out plane tickets..... Would be awesome
Edit - Added poll
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Hate to post it, but here is a decent link for current info:
Electric cars are for girls huh? That is exactly the sort of concept I'm spending my $$ to bury. Most people seem to think they're slow, whimpy, girly things suitable for nothing but getting to work and back cheaply. I cringe everytime I see another one of those zap things, or a G-Whiz (european thing). It doesn't need to be that way....
At least we have the Tesla roadster out there as a legitimate sportscar burning rubber and changing minds.
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My Opinion, is write as such to apply to ANY car. Good luck.
The principals and components are universal, if it'd work for a Z then so it would for anything from a family sedan to a rat rod. But that book has already been written....there are lots of them in fact. (Convert It! is supposed to be good)
I was thinking more like the JTR manual; Z specific with a step-by-step of a conversion start to finish. Perhaps split into commuter and race setups with parts lists and estimated performance figures and prices for each.
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best....video...ever
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So I just got this message posted to my 240z conversion blog:
"Bro ~ I'm sure I speak for many z owners...you should write a book. A detailed how-to-instructable, have you. You detailed quite a bit in this blog, but a step by step guide would be great! I know I would purchase it. I own two 240z's. A '71 with a 400 Small Block V8 and a '73 stock. Like the first respondant, I think it the responsible thing to do. I also have a '65 Lincoln Continental that will eventually receive the same treatment should the z come out well. Thanks again for your great work to society."
And its got me thinking. Is there really very much interest in this sort of thing?
I am in a unique position because I have completed an electric Z start to finish, yet still have a stock 280z slated to receive the same treatment. Plus, I'm hoping to do a direct drive / lithium conversion, which contrasts very nicely to the stock tranny / lead acid conversion previously.....representing the whole continuum from low to high tech.
Last question; I'm willing (and have) given all the info I have away for free. I don't care to make any money. Is a step-by-step (and tangible, physical) guide worth much more than the same steps scattered across several pages on the web? Worth the effort to produce, edit, and have printed? People buy the JTR manual (I did).....so perhaps?
Just want a feel for the level of interest here.
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I know the last post was back in October '08, but how the things are going? Have you finished your 76? I have a 76 as well and am wondering if I install a generator in the smog equipped car even with the eletric motor (I live in CA), am I going to be penalized for running diesel down the freeway? Can one run a farmer's diesel in a generator (cheaper)?
How much more difficult is it to install the direct drive system bypassing the transmission?
Thanks!
The 76 has been prepped (engine removed), but nothing else has been done. I've been swamped with no less than 4 other EV projects all happening simultaneously. Plus, I would really like to convert the 280 without running anything to the back; keep 100% of the batteries and wiring under the hood this time. This will make things way, way easier, but it requires I use lithium batteries. To do it with lead would only be possible with a small, light pack, which would compromise range significantly. I don't want to compromise anything.
The diesel was removed when the car was sold, I never got a chance to run it while on the road. The start/stop and speed control was going to be an issue without computerized control, which is tricky on a primitive engine.
As far as "farmer's diesel"....I have no idea. My understanding is that if you're caught running off-road diesel in a road vehicle the fines are incredible. But when that diesel is running a generator that runs a vehicle....thats a grey area. If I had to guess I'd say its perfectly legal to run that generator in your driveway, but the second you start moving you're in violation unless you pay the road tax.
Here is what I would do; make it removable. If you run into smog issues you just go home, pull it out, and you have a straight EV. Could swap in a cat'ed engine, hydrogen fuel cell, second pack, whatever makes them/you happy without too much trouble.
Direct drive....way easier. Haven't tried it personally, but so much of the fabrication was the motor-trans coupling it'd go much more quickly if it could be avoided. Plus, if I had to list what was most likely to fail under abuse, it would be that coupler. To get rid of it makes the whole vehicle so much more elegant in my mind. Since you stick the motor where the transmission was, you free up the whole engine bay for batteries (better weight distribution possible).
Direct drive requires alot more motor (8" is plenty with a transmission, 9" minimum for direct and I'd go with a 11" personally) and more controller (1000A was fun with a trans, I'd want more if I was going direct). Counter-intuitive, but battery requirements are unchanged.
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An unlikely grant proposal and one year later, the government is providing funding to showcase next generation fuel cell technology under the hood of this car!
Just like me, the fuel cell will ultimately run on booze (methanol/ethanol - Macallen 18 year should provide optimal performance). With a little help from the government, we hope to ensure that the South's illicit moonshine industry powers America well into the 21st century.
I've become familiar with Joe Porcelli's electric 280z, as well as Project AmpEater 240z. But with this posting I was hoping to probe the ZCar/HybridZ universe for any other Zcar electric conversions that may be out there. It seems like a lot of people have tossed the idea around, but never acted on it. If there are any other fuel cell powered Z's, those would be good to know about too. But I assume that's much more of a long-shot.
Details! Voltage? What size stack? You mentioned both batteries and capacitors? Will there be a buck/boost or will they be paralleled? Have you selected a motor/controller combo?
I always thought a fuel cell would be the ideal "auxiliary power source" for the ampeater....I guess I'll be waiting until they show up on the surplus market.
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I know you said your '76 has a lot of sentimental value for you, and I can fully appreciate that, but do you think it will be for sale when you're finished converting it?
Jeff
Hard to say, I'm not looking forward to selling it, but there is a pretty good chance it will have to go to make room for the next project. Ideally I'd know before hand so I could design things around a goal, be it performance or economy or style. Are you in the market for a 280zev?
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Whats the story behind selling it? Did you make it in order to sell it or did somebody see it and make you a nice offer? and how much did you sell it for? I'm dyin to know. post some pictures of the finished car, exterior, interior, engine bay and trunk if you would please
I'm wondering how much an electric Z would sell for since i'm doing one. I'm more so just kinda fixing and restoring it right now..... chipping all that condensed tar and.....peanut butter glue (lol) from the cabin with a screw driver and hammer lmao. and thinking about the best way to fix rust in bottom quarter panels without a welder.~David
The story is that I had already moved onto a more advanced project mentally; I've got a '76 280z waiting for some love and most of the components for it sitting on the shelf. I guess I like building stuff more than owning the finished product. Truthfully I've already got about 5 vehicles after that planned out mentally, each one is a stepping stone to the next.
I'd rather not disclose price, and it is still up in the air at the moment as I continue to purchase parts and work on the vehicle for the new owner. I think the value of this vehicle is limited by the rust present, its beautiful for a 38 year old vehicle but it is still a 38 year old vehicle.
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Did you ever install the ICE in the rear?
I did but things have changed. The car was sold to a buyer as a pure EV, the generator came out and is waiting for another project. The rear hatch looks completely stock now:
Now there are 12 of the 30 batteries concealed below the hatch floor.
Much cleaner and way more professional, don't you think?
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I never thought seeing that much dead weight, set that far in front of the front axles of an S30, could look so APPEALING.......
I reduced weight over the front axle by 150 lbs versus the previous incarnation. Even then people commented that it handled well so I'm eager to see how much the steering has improved. The weight in the rear dropped by a foot and is now located as close to the differential as possible while being centered just above the road. I expect body roll will be reduced as a result. Handling should be superior, with a little less peak power.
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Picture of the new and as of yet unfinished engine bay with the new gel cell batteries. I just need to mount that second contactor and finish wiring, could be rolling again tonight.
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Here is a new electric motor that should change things, if it ever gets to production.
http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Millennial_Motors_Inc:Magnetronic_Motor
Mark
"He said that for 100W in, they're getting around 1 HP out (which is still above the 746 W / HP supposed limit). "
"In a typical motor, when the load goes up, making the rpm go down, the current goes up. He said that in their motor, when you load the motor, the current goes down. He said that this aspect alone was what they were pursuing right now, with the idea that such a motor would have greatly increased life. "
Around here we obey the laws of thermodynamics.
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and, is your next project another EV, is it a datsun, ???
Next up is my 76 280z. I've had it since before the 240, it has alot more sentimental value. Its frame is in better condition (zero rust) and less stuff needs to be addressed before it could pass inspection; it could be converted in a matter of weeks or even days if all the parts were on-hand. It will be huge advantage to just be able to drop components in and drive; I spent more time doing restoration stuff than I did electrical on the 240. It took me longer to get the blinkers and brake lights working than it did to wire up the batteries and motor to the motor controller, less headache too. Pictures will follow, as well as those of the finished 240 (when that happens....each day has been an 8 hour work-a-thon for the last few in order to get this thing ready to ship)
Can one run a farmer's diesel in a generator (cheaper)?
Electric 280z with a massive 13.5" GE motor
in Other Engines
Posted
I've got a Tesla. I've done plenty of measuring, it would be very difficult to fit the Tesla drivetrain into a datsun. The Model S is a very wide car, first of all. And it has huge brake rotors. I've got a picture of my Z and Tesla side-by-side somewhere...it makes the datsun look absolutely tiny.
A Tesla makes around 4,000 ft-lbs to the rear wheels. With 2000 amps into this motor it will do around 3,500 ft-lbs in a vehicle 1/2 the weight.
The battery is a much more important consideration. I've working on a battery solution that will beat the Tesla pack in terms of energy per pound and energy per cubic foot, but less power. Mainly because the Tesla pack has a lot of structure and packaging due to it's size, and the packaging density of the cells isn't great due to the water cooling channels touching all the cells.
However the batteries I've got in the car now will blow away the Tesla cells in terms of power output. But not energy density. It's all a trade-off.