jmead
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Posts posted by jmead
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The car has been sold. I'm eager to move onto my next project, my 76' 280z. Right now I am finishing up the wiring, charger and some other loose ends before loading it onto a truck headed for boston. I will definitely upload pictures of the finished product before it heads out; some things have changed.
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Sweet, i'm absolutely lovin your project. I'm doing the same thing with my 280Z. What motor are you running and the info and stuff on it? from ebay you say?
Its a 9" Kostov motor, from ebay. I would recommend something more mainstream, either a netgain or ADC. This way you're bolt pattern is standardized, the motor could be easily replaced (should the need ever arise), replacement brushes are easily available, etc. Not to mention the huge community of people pushing the limits and accumulating data, so you know how much it can take without needing to break it yourself finding out. For my next conversion I will be following my own advice.
My motor is rated 144V and 107A (1hr) at 5000rpm. Less than 100lbs.
I love the idea of seeing more EV Z's!
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I would check these out:
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/
and I also like:
http://ecomodder.com/forum/ "fossil fuel free" sub forum
By no means a complete list...I feel like I've left out some really good sources, I will update as they come to mind
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That last bit (more "green") might only hold up so long as it is a minimal market share going LPG, but that seems almost certain to be the case until gas hits $10+/gallon stateside, and probably forever. As much as *I* love it for an alternative fuel, LPG will never be the answer.. it may be a substitute and a dual fuel option on a CNG vehicle, and CNG might be a better option than LPG for any number of reasons, but you aren't backing yourself into a corner that will be getting crowded soon by going LPG.
Well, in this situation the lpg is really more of a "burn catalyst" as I understand it, so you're not really paying for the energy produced from the combusted propane as much as you're paying for better combustion of the primary fuel you're already burning.
I have looking into LPG as a primary fuel, and pretty much come to the same conclusion as you. I really, really wanted to convert my 280z at one point, to the point of starting to buy parts, but its hard to justify the expense and what you give up in convenience for what you get. Now, for a turbo'd high compression dragster or something, I don't get why you wouldn't at all. Incredible octane rating, already gaseous and pressurized for unlimited fuel delivery. Maybe due to freezing issues?
Regarding a muffler, I don't know if I would bother with getting a muffler off of an automobile.. What size tubing would you be using, around an inch? I would think that a long, multiple-S shaped pipe would work acceptably.
Its 1.5" tubing. I'm certain I need a good muffler, I have started the diesel up a few times already and it's loud. Even with the muffler that came attached it's a little obnoxious, and if you're strapped in a few feet away I could see that being an issue over time. Hopefully something designed to deal with the pressure waves from 100+ hp engines will be even more effective with the limited exhaust flow, but I don't know much about muffler technology .
I also have the issue of having an extremely limited amount of space to work with, the placement of the generator was governed by other factors primarily, which resulted in a much less than ideal exhaust route. The real issue is the designed exhaust port sits at the same height and about 2" away from the rear frame rail. So I either need to modify the original muffler to exhaust down, or remove it entirely and weld a new exhaust to a more conventional car muffler, or both. I think later today I'm going to visit the scrap yard with a tape measure and a hacksaw.
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details on the motor and genset??I did a quick scan of the past few weeks of posts, and didn't notice any mention of plans to make it a hybrid HybridZ.. Thoughts, ideas bandied about a while back I remember, but not specific plans.
Its just a 10hp air-cooled electric start yanmar, coupled to a 10,000 watt brushless generator through a lovejoy coupler. The engine weighs something like 125lbs and the gen is something like 80. I'd have liked something closer to 20hp but the diesels that big are 250+ lbs. I might consider propane injection to boost the output while cleaning up the particulate emissions (I hear it produces a more complete burn, so more power for the same fuel usage).
If that doesn't work out I tried to build everything to be easily removable/upgradeable, so a different engine could be fitted easily. I've been eyeing those 3 cylinder suzuki engines, but then I'd need an upgraded generator to make full use of the output.
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please plumb that exhaust out of the car.
Yeah....that's what I'm working on right now, its going to be harder than I thought. Looks like I'm going to have to remove the muffler that came on the engine and fab something up that fits. Probably for the best, that thing is loud the way it is now, something bigger will be good. I'll probably just go to the junkyard tomorrow and find one off a metro or similar small car.
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This, I REALLY envy. Its a safety net for when you just have to burn out and smoke that camaro on the way to lunch.
Exactly, all the benefits of electric without the major limitation or only having X amount of power onboard.
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Generator is f-i-n-a-l-l-y in the car. This part of the project seemed to drag on forever. I hope to get the wires run and some preliminary mileage numbers within just a few days.
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A buddy of mine has a salvage yard, and he has many large electric motors. I was going to go over and dig around trying to find a canidate. I guess I'll look for a DC in the 144V range like the one that you used.
Really your thread inspired me to change the car over to electric, but more for the novelty than anything else. The 50 mile range is ok, and I would really put it together to run around town. It would certainly be unusual.
I'll see what he has for motors, make some notes, and report back.
Thanks
You know of a salvage yard with big motors just sitting around? Give me an address and I'm there!
I see the point of the inverter question now. A large 3 phase industrial motor could be used. You should check out http://www.evalbum.com/1149
He used a 3 phase motor from a salvage yard. If you're just looking for around town use then electric will be perfect. I'm guessing that car has a pretty low cd too, which is really what determines range based on a given kwh battery pack. Sounds like an awesome project, I'm a little jealous already.
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I am very interested in this project...but not for my z cars.
I have a Manta Mirage similar to this one
that is my next project. After seeing this thread I am thinking about pulling the small block and going electric. The car is well under 2000 lbs. with a 4 speed manual. After reading this, the conversion seems fairly straight forward.
However I have some questions.
I have been told that I really need to be using an AC motor. If using an AC motor, do you use an inverter? How big an AC motor should me used?
Well, if you want all out acceleration you can't beat DC. But AC has lots of advantages, the biggest being a wider torque band and greater rpm range/higher peak rpm. Under 2000 lbs is perfect because the ac motors available are generally smaller than DC. I'd look for one around 100kw if possible. An inverter is necessary to drive an AC, and they are generally sold as a pair. The inverter must be matched to the motor. Check out http://www.metricmind.com/
You'll probably want lithium, to keep the weight down and the range up, otherwise a small pack of AGM will provide good acceleration but poor range (depends on what the intended use is). Hopefully you've got a pretty large budget.
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CD of 0.28, ~2500 pounds. Subaru XT, produced in 4 cyl and 6 cyl variants, available with 4wd, AWD, and FWD. I would bet dollars to donuts that a datsun clutch disc would spline right onto the crankshaft, so a RWD setup would be easy to fabricate.. and besides, people yank the front axles out of 4WD trannies all the time anyhow, just not ideal for long-term reliability.
As an electric?? HAHAHAHAHAHA, it would be STELLAR! (No pun intended)
Personally, I dream of running one of these either hybrid diesel/electric or off of LPG one of these days as my econo car so I don't have to worry about fuel so much...
Sorry, I had to get off-topic once the concept of "holy grail" was mentioned... the XT, to me, is the holy grail of sporty econo cars.
Thank you! I remember seeing that car and hearing it had an insanely low cd, but I just couldn't think of the name of the thing. Not only that, but it came in an AWD version? Awesome..... I've been thinking about a setup that included a big series wound DC motor in the back for acceleration, and a smaller PM or AC motor in the front for regen/high eff cruise. Too bad they seem so rare, I think I've only seen one or two on the road ever. Holy grail is right
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I must admit though, if the range of your EV was more like 120 miles, or costed about 1/2 the price overall, then I'm not sure I'd be able to restrain myself. Electric is just so much cheaper than gasoline in reality.
The idea of a EV truck also sounds cool. Get an old toyota or datsun pickup, add batteries and you can still leave room in the bed to haul some things around town.
The battery tech is holding electrics back right now, I'm hoping that changes quickly. Lithium has huge potential; while it is expensive now the raw materials aren't that expensive and china has huge lithium reserves. Things are going to start happening there....
I'm liking the truck concept as well, I've been keeping an eye on craigslist for a toyota with a decent body and a bad motor for cheap. Flooded lead acid will be much cheaper, easier to charge and balance. I think a truck could be done for ~$5k with good performance. That is with a 156v pack, 1000A controller, 9" motor and a DIY charger, if you're frugal and good at fabrication. Maybe $6k would be more reasonable including the truck and odds and ends.
I punched the numbers in a calc real quick and it looks like around 80 miles at 50 and 50 miles at 60. That'd get me there and back with half the initial cost and probably half the cost per mile.
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I was simply asking that if we're going to compare the EV to normal cars, lets be fair you know? I respect your choice to make your Z a EV, and I'm still watching for updates with high anticipation. But let's please compare apples to apples. We can't compare average vehicle costs of a sedan to a EV. Would we compare a geo metro to a hummer? No...
Well then one must consider the other benefits, to be fair. What car can I go out and buy that gets 50+ mpg and will roast the tires at will? Where can I get a 50+ mpg vehicle with same class and appeal of a vintage Z? Most vehicles are built for a purpose, to haul 6 kids at once, to get 60mpg, to look really cool....an EV can be cheap and fast and cool and "eco friendly" all at the same time.
As far as I'm concerned, this EV is the holy grail. The only limitation I see is the range issue, but the only reason that is still an issue is that I've been having too much fun drifting around parking lots to weld the generator in.
I should also point out that I chose expensive, high performance batteries. 90% of conversions use flooded lead acid which cost ~1/3 as much per mile versus AGM.
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90% of my driving is the same route, every day. I commute to school each day, 24 miles each way. The drive takes me about 25 minutes and costs me about $7 a day in fuel at todays gas prices. This is with and "fuel effecient sedan" EPA rated 32mpg highway. If you factor in oil, maintenence, and the depreciation over time of the vehicle each mile may cost considerably more than this.
I spent $2300 on a pack of 12 PC1750 Hawker Odyssey sealed AGM batteries that are warrantied for 4 years free replacement. Assuming the pack lasts only those 4 years, my battery costs are $575 a year. When you add electricity to this ((5 recharges/week X 52wks) X 10kwh/charge X $0.10/kwh) = $252 in electricity "fuel" costs.
Now, how many mpg do I need to get to match $827 in transportation costs for 12,480 miles for commuting?
How much is peace of mind that you can afford to keep your job if gas hits $5, $6, $7, $8 a gallon worth?
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Have you thought about putting two motors mounted in the rear of the car, each directly to the back wheels? I figure that it might put a lot of extra weight in the back of the car, but you would lose a lot of weight in drive train, which would allow for more battery carrying capacity in the front.
That would be a very cool setup. Eliminate the diff, transmission, driveshaft. Plus you could use 2 smaller (cheaper) motors and still exceed the output of one large (expensive) motor. This would also allow for the batteries to be strategically placed as low as possible, with wiggle room to adjust the front/rear weight distribution to be balanced perfectly. The motor to half-shaft connection is the only problem, likely requiring belts or chains of some kind.
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Battery weight, capacity & recharge time has always been the problem when it comes to EV's. But there are some new technologies around the corner, like Nickel/Zinc batteries that actually last. NiZn batteries can deliver 30% more power and increased energy density, as well as reduced size, weight and cost. Here are two companies and their claims. http://www.greencarcongress.com/2008/05/powergenix-intr.html http://www.xellerion.com/ But the one that has a lot of people wondering is a company called EEStor. They claim to have developed a ultracapacitor using ceramics. http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:EEStore
I am eager to see some NiZn cells actually become available for testing. The technical specs are impressive, especially the peak output per pound figures. It seems like the future of battery technology is very bright. Hopefully the marketplace becomes very competitive (as I'm sure it will) and we see price wars bring the cost down. Electric vehicles are right on the edge of being a cost per mile winner with high gas prices, but if capacity increases as price drops it won't even be a fair fight at that point.
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Those motors sounds like the best bang for the buck ! 1500 km range is ALOT !
http://www.pmlflightlink.com/motors/hipa_drive.html
It seems to be the same principle as the JGTC supra wheel motors with batteries and capacitors to store regenbraking to charge batteries .
I wouldn't hold your breath for a commercially available wheel motor any time soon. They have existed for decades, the problem unsprung weight and durability. The entirety of the assembly is subjected to the extreme vibration of a suspended wheel, as wheel as the shock associated with wheel hop, launch, etc. A normal motor as least has a mechanical gear reduction and several joints to dampen the extreme instantaneous forces encountered in an automotive application.
Also, I don't believe 1500km for a second. 250wh/mi is a typical figure for a car with a standard series wound motor. These are typically ~85% efficient. Even with a wheel motor that is 95% efficient you're only talking a 10% improvement. That means 1500km (~900 miles) would take 202,000wh of battery capacity. At a current price of $1/wh thats a very expensive battery pack, not to mention a weight of something like 4,000lbs even with the highest tech lithium cells available.
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jmead;
So what kind of pulling power would a single (any electric still in planning) have connected directly to a diff with 3.73 gears and 26" tall tires?
Enough to pull a 3400 lbs vehicle towing a car trailer that weighs around another 3400 lbs, with all equipment?
Or should I retain the tranny to have some lower gears for an easier take off from a standing start?
Based on the 135ft-lbs of a transwarp 11, a 3.73 rear end would give you 504 ft-lbs to the wheels at 450 amps. The same vehicle with a transmission in first gear (assuming ~4:1 in first) would be over 2000 ft-lbs to the wheels.
It'd be just like starting in forth, which I haven't tried, but I have accelerated from a stop in third and I certainly wouldn't want to do it pulling 3400 lbs behind me.
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Think there is enough space underneath and in front of the rear IRS to directly attach a Transwarp 11 ?
Thinking http://www.evparts.com/prod-MT2144.htm
Supposedly 135ft lb torque at 72 volts/453amp?
I've looked into this. The transmission tunnel narrows down so much between the seats that its just not possible. You'd either have to live with a driveshaft or flip the differential around and have the motor behind the wheels. This would require a new differential mount to be fabricated but would be interesting.
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Wow. An electric motor swap is really attractive, given the prices of gasoline these days. But from what I've seen from this 240z project and the electric imp, it doesn't seem very practical. I would definitely do the swap if I knew how to do it, or if there's a bundle of parts and directions for a rookie like me to follow.
I know the project as a whole may appear complex, but if your break it down into little pieces there isn't anything that can't be accomplished with basic tools and skills. The hardest part in my opinion is fabricating the motor to transmission mounting plate. This is commonly outsourced and there are companies that specialize in this. I looked into having this done but they did not have a pattern on file for the Z car transmission.
If there were to be enough interest I would even be up for putting together a kit tailored specifically for Z cars. With the major hurdles taken care of a conversion is little more than an engine swap, it could even be a weekend project.
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1. are you using a scr panel or some kind of box to control the motor, or just streight up contactors/ speed pot, how do you control the smoothness of the motor for around town cruising?
2.are you using a clutch or when you lift off the throttle does the electric motor speed match the gearbox and a clutch is not needed?
The motor speed is completely under the control of the 1000A PWM controller shown in the upper left corner. I have a small potentiometer connected to the throttle that tells the controller how much juice to apply.
I'm not using a clutch, and you've got it right. To shift I just let off the throttle and slowly apply pressure to the gear I'd like to shift to. I don't force it and it simply goes into gear when it is ready. Downshifting is a little harder, you need to rev up the motor and do the same thing, it engages when the rpms match. It took me a few days to get used to it but now all my shifts are smooth and grind free. Plus there is no need to shift when you come to a stop, so alot of the time its just like driving an automatic.
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Ok, maybe I'm just especially green today, but is anyone else itching to buy a old yota truck with a dead motor?
Could fit quite a few batteries, decently light, and I could STILL leave room for guitar gear... If I could get 150+ range it'd be worth considering. That might be a LOT of batteries though.
150 miles is a little optimistic unless you go lithium. I did find one example;
"Red Beastie" that can do 150 miles city, 120 highway. That is 2 strings of 20 6v flooded batteries. Total weight of "5,260 Pounds"
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Im thinking about doing a Geo metro (1200lbs)...Thats after my 1jz swap... Only problem is i might have to make it 2 seater cause those cars are small...no room for bat.
Very popular conversion, there are even companies that sell pre made motor adapter plates and stuff. Plus the ability to use lower rated components (6.7" motor instead of a 9", 72v controller instead of 144v, etc) would really keep the costs down alot.
http://www.evalbum.com/type/GEO
Lots of good examples there.
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I was just wondering if you could use 480v 3 phase a/c power to charge your setup? if so u can get a heliocopter generator (alternator) that at full speed 8000 rpm produces 400hz but if you powered it down to 1200 rpm you would have 480v 3 phase 60 hz for a quick charge ?
just throwing ideas out there. it weighs 48 lbs and is the size of a r-200 pumpkin not the goose neck. ?
Very interesting. I never would have looked at something like that as a possibility. 480 is a bit much but there are ways of stepping it down, so I don't see any reason why not. 60hz isn't required, in fact, something like 400hz might be even better. Any idea of the amps one of those can put out?
Only problem is i might have to make it 2 seater cause those cars are small...no room for bat.
Electric 240z Project Pics
in Other Engines
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Do you have any idea how many amp hours you realistically get out of those during normal use? Those look to be rated 125ah@5hr rate vs. the 75ah of the odyssey agms, but due to peukert effects for a 1 hr discharge the realistic capacity is likely ~70ah for the trojans vs 54ah for the agm.
The pack of 12 weighs 720 lbs. My favorite part is the 4 year free replacement warranty, which my sales person assured me would be honored even in an EV application. They also have the marine series with dual terminals available in 100ah and 125ah sizes but with a 2 year warranty and a higher price tag. They are certainly expensive up front.
My 1000A controller doesn't even stress them, the highest draw I've achieved out of the batteries was 700a for a brief second. I don't have a lot of long-term experience yet but they have been great so far, I'm curious to see how many cycles they really deliver under daily use. I've never heard a bad comment about odyssey batteries (except the price).