Neveragain55 Posted December 26, 2011 Share Posted December 26, 2011 So I’ve seen this topic beaten to death in many forums and I definitely don’t want to rekindle any former disagreements over the topics validity, but what are your collective thoughts on balancing the shaft & blades of a turbo once it’s been rebuilt? The populist seem to agree that if there are no discernable grooves, marks, or shaved areas on the nut or base of the blades – balancing is not needed because the components were all balanced from the factory. Apparently (from what I’ve read) the Garrett T3/T4 turbo’s came with balanced components from the factory. My particular turbo shows no signs of any metal being removed for the sake of balancing and the nut holding everything together is whole and unmolested. Add to which, every “Turbo Rebuild†video I’ve watched never ended with the turbo being balanced. (for whatever that’s worth) I realize all the turbo rebuild shops say that this is sacrilege and won’t hear of any turbo not being rebuilt without a proper balance job at the end, but I think it’s also safe to say that they’re all a little bias given the loss of revenue (for them) skipping this process. Please do share as I am now inches away from rebuilding my T3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony D Posted December 27, 2011 Share Posted December 27, 2011 Disagree, there is a net BENEFIT to the rebuilder balancing them. They don't make money on the balancing, but they avoid massive warranty liability exposure down the road from vibration related failures from the products they put out with their name and warranty on... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony D Posted December 27, 2011 Share Posted December 27, 2011 (edited) Our company charges $2,500 for a "check and balance" on a rotating assembly when we do a cleaning and inspection in the factory. If a customer installs that assembly WITHOUT using our "check and balance" service, they're on their own. We will not take responsibility for rotating assemblies that leave our factory without our balancing being done. They wreck it, we get $30,000 to sell them a new rotating assembly. Plus the other wrecked parts. They have us balance and it wrecks, we are on the hook for the repair. Our stuff only turns 17-54,000 RPMs, you think one turning 120,000 doesn't need it? Compare the costs above...my bet is the ratios are similar. Would you spend 2,500 to protect 30,000? Drop a couple of zeros and the same question remains... Edited December 27, 2011 by Tony D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neveragain55 Posted December 27, 2011 Author Share Posted December 27, 2011 Appreciate the reply,s guys and the logic sounds solid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
randy 77zt Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 I suspected some problems with my home brew hybrid t3/t4 turbo .the closest rebuilder does rebuilds turbos for aircraft.All of his rebuilds are balenced.I didnt think $500 for parts and labor was a bad price . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nhuwar Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Thats seems a little high to me. Depending on what needs to be replaced though. Nick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neveragain55 Posted January 15, 2012 Author Share Posted January 15, 2012 Well my turbo is back together sans the wastegate actuator. I’m going to put a 10psi unit on and I’m going to modify the original bracket by taking off the tack welded can and drilling the holes for the mounting bolts of the new actuator. Why somebody didn’t make a bracket that angles correctly for the T3/T4 models is beyond me. There are several that will fit those particular turbo’s but none of them have the right angle in order for the oil inlet to be properly un-obstructed. I went back and forth and did a ton of research on the “balancing†thing and settled on trying a little experiment first. I fired up my air compressor, cranked the air pressure up well over 100psi, pointed my conned air nozzle at the hot end turbine and spun the hell out of her. She whipped around at lightning speed and didn’t so much as shake, vibrate, or anything. She was as steady as a rock, so needless to say I didn’t feel the need to send those components out to be balanced. Now before I get the avalanche of scolding for my back yard under the shade tree method with the airline. I can’t imagine a bench getting the turbine to spin much faster, and if it were out of balance I would have seen and/or felt it. I felt comfortable enough that I reassembled the whole thing and I’m positive she’ll perform just fine under power. If not – lesson learned and I'll have it professionally balanced. I also have to agree that $500.00 seems like a bit much to rebuild a turbo, especially given the prices of new and good used turbo’s on the market…….. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
letitsnow Posted January 15, 2012 Share Posted January 15, 2012 Gpopshop quoted me 600 to upgrade my t3 to a t3/t04e 50 trim with a stg 3 turbine wheel, I would be supplying a core and the t04b compressor cover I have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony D Posted January 15, 2012 Share Posted January 15, 2012 Speed is not what you need, it's a calibrated load cell and keyphasor. They only spin the modules to 1800-3600 RPMs and make corrections accordingly. You realise these spin 100,000rpms in use, right? Order of magnitude for imbalances. Good Luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neveragain55 Posted January 15, 2012 Author Share Posted January 15, 2012 I can't or won't argue sound logic or known equations & numbers because I'd lose that argument all day long and I know it. Sometimes in any rebuild of any component we all just have to trust our gut in addition to the experience we've all gained over the many years of turning wrenches, and my gut is telling me she'll be ok. I understand what you’re saying and respect the fact that you have much more knowledge in this area than I do. But in case things do go awry, I promise to report any and all anomalies so that others can benefit from my mistakes. Thanks for the reply Tony........... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony D Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 It's ok, our Engineering Fellow was arguing with me over a wreck we had. Catastrophic damage on a 2250HP machine. He simply stated that he couldn't believe that reverse flow through the machine from a fully opened (stuck) check valve could cause that kind of damage. I directed him to a competitors air starter application tech line, who estimated at a minimum the energy produced in such a situation was 1200hp! They revised that thought about reverse flow. I used to swap Corvair T-Wheels all the time putting early turbines on later impellers. The bearing is a forgiving design.... But... There are turbos that start screaming at 10,000 miles, and those that start at 100,000. For an experiment, meh. I'd as soon just buy the Chinese knockoff turbos. They seem to last about as long. The key is to not have an imbalance that excites the rotor to the point either end rubs the casings. Once that happens, it's only a matter of time. There were old tricks revolving around paint marks being put opposite, or spinning the wheels independently with different indexing till it would not consistently stop with the same point on the wheel "down"... I'll be interested to see the results. As I said if the imbalance is within the tolerance of the bearing and it doesn't touch. Justice sure your wastegate works! Overspeed it with an imbalNce and you will have a howling banshee in short order! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
letitsnow Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 I helped someone put a chinese turbo on their wrx, it was howling within 5(five) miles. I'd take an unbalanced garrett over chinese. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neveragain55 Posted January 17, 2012 Author Share Posted January 17, 2012 (edited) You guys have a lot of great knowledge and I never leave these forums without learning something new. This is the reason why I enjoy these forums so much. Trust me I realize the aggravation and grieve I'm setting myself up for by not simply sending the components out to be balanced just to be safe but it's sort of in my DNA to operate the way I do, and for whatever it's worth - the method to my madness has served me well these 30 years of restoring cars and bikes. Quick story to the point: 16 years ago I bought a 1979 Suzuki GS750E without hearing it run or so much as turn the engine over, but instinctively I knew she wasn't seized or locked up. I Completely tore down the bike (never opened the motor) put everything back together, and after spending roughly $2,000 dollars - 16 years later she's still running like a demon and has almost all the compression she had when she rolled of the line in 79. I sure hope my gut is as equally right about my turbo...... Edited January 17, 2012 by Neveragain55 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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