Leon Posted May 21, 2013 Share Posted May 21, 2013 Leon, well maybe I have a communication problem. I was in big brother mode I guess. If I saw that car with you guys around, with that set up, yeah, I likely would say something like- 'you know, those 40s are too small for that engine.' He would get that quite a bit actually. Dont you think? After his explanation I would probably go look at a different Z car, and stand around with some different guys. Oh, so you would be "that guy". Nobody likes that guy... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leon Posted May 21, 2013 Share Posted May 21, 2013 (edited) Sounds like your tuning is coming along. I found when I had a wideband that the nature of a "bog" was often not what it seemed. What I thought was lean due to small accel jets was actually splashing the Wideband to sub-10 AFR. And what I thought was too rich in progression and transition was actually lean from bad prog-port placement and long reach from prog to mains. The wideband made it all painfully obvious and when the sensor finally died and the car was performing well enough I didn't replace the sensor for a while and lived quite peacefully in that region. The Sidedraft Central forum and the FAQ (All who live for) should be read frequently as there are small gems inside all of that. I did quite well with my 40s on 34 chokes and made fine power. At one track I would max out 3rd gear at the end of the straight prior to braking. Later I put on the 45s with 40 chokes and at the end of that same straight I was most of the way through 4th gear. Measurable, yes. Awe inspiring, not as much. When my next head is done the 45s will be put to better use. Leon: Thank you for putting it all in context with respect to conversing as if face to face and the Hybridz rules mention this in the last sentence. Very well put. Tom. All good points, and thanks for mentioning that it's actually part of the forum rules. And now back to our regularly scheduled programming. Edited May 21, 2013 by Leon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T-Bone028 Posted May 21, 2013 Author Share Posted May 21, 2013 Steve, I'm guessing I got pretty lucky with my intake manifold then, aside from all 3 linkage rod ends being centered correctly on the manifold, I did not have to do any grinding on the outside flange to match up with my header. That would be something that would drive me absolutely nuts upon fitting it on the head. I did however have to knock down some of the casting ridges/marks within the intake runners, and smoothed some of the rough texture inside the runner. I still left a bit of "roughness" if you will based on some reading I did regarding wet/dry intake manifolds as it relates to polishing. As far as carb to intake manifold alignment, they were pretty darn close so I did not take the chance on mucking it up trying to gasket match. Regarding the throttle levers, I ended up leaving the front and center carb as a right-hand throttle lever, and made the rear carb (closest to the firewall) a left-hand throttle lever. Depending on the throttle actuation arm type (ball stud versus bolt) I could see that being a pretty tight clearance. It's a tight fit for me between the center and rear carb throttle levers/arms...they dont touch though so it worked out. If you check one of my photos earlier in this thread, you may be able to see it. Lastly, I did end up putting on slightly longer manifold/carb studs. 1 3/4" stud length for the top 6, 2.225" for the bottom 6. I think the one's usually included are a 1 1/4". Should be 5/16-18 studs...purchased from Summit for like $10 (I believe brand was Summit and Mr. Gasket or Doorman). Gives you a little extra room/thread to install the anti-vibe mounts with the studs fully seated (with loctite of course) into the intake manifold. Too bad those stupid anti-vibe mounts made it impossible for me to fit my air cleaners on! I've heard that the "Borg-Warner" style anti-vibe mounts are slightly thinner. I believe its the one that PierceManifolds says is their "preferred" type. But with the regular anti-vibe mounts with the plastic spacer being a 1/4" thick, I'm not sure how much thinner the borg-warner style is. What kind of ignition are you using and whats your timing? Ignition timing was the biggest difference for me as far as power... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve260z Posted May 21, 2013 Share Posted May 21, 2013 Yea, I rounded up the 12 longer studs between a local Ace hardware and Autozone. Each had about 7 of them. I have the K&N filters that appear to fit. I haven't put them on yet...I picked these carbs up from another guy here in the parts for sale section. Not to mention also having to retap the intake manifold for the larger "eye" bolts that come with the Billet kit. I'm using the crane electronic module since my stock module crapped out a few years back. I haven't set the timing yet. I've just been checking for leaks...which did occur. One of the Venturis was not fully seated and gas was dripping out the front of the carb. I'm using the ball stud type so I don't see being able to use a left and right next to each other. Its certainly a mock up deal and see how everything fits. ss Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T-Bone028 Posted May 22, 2013 Author Share Posted May 22, 2013 Steve are you using slip in style air horns? they should help in both aligning the aux venturi correctly in the throttle bore, as well as seating the aux and main Venturi once tightened down with the retaining tabs for the air horns and filter back plate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve260z Posted May 22, 2013 Share Posted May 22, 2013 Ah, the retaining tabs. That's what those things are.... Yes, using the slip on style. This carbs came 99% complete but with plenty of unidentified parts/bolts/nuts. Thanks for the tip. ss Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heroez Posted May 23, 2013 Share Posted May 23, 2013 (edited) I like velocity stacks with the sock filters too. Very nice. Oh, so you would be "that guy".The good things are worth waiting for in my experience. I agree to disagree in practice, yet we agree in the fundamental way. Hate it when that happens! Lol. Edited May 23, 2013 by Heroez Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve260z Posted May 26, 2013 Share Posted May 26, 2013 Ok, finally got my parts and linkage hooked up. Its kinda "hacked together" right now. Need to get a fuel rail and maybe cut down the main rod. But, I'm getting the high idle. If I set the timing at 2 degree BTC I'm running at 2,500rpms. I have the idle screws set a 1/2 a turn from bottomed out and my idle speed/throttle adjustment are just an 1/8 of a turn past contact. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T-Bone028 Posted May 27, 2013 Author Share Posted May 27, 2013 Nice work Steve! Those are massive air horns! when you set the idle speed screws 1/8 past contact, do you recall where the throttle plate was in relation to the first progression hole? At 1/8, I doubt a hole is uncovered...Linkage completely un-hooked, what do you idle at? Just trying to think out loud about why your idle is that high Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve260z Posted May 27, 2013 Share Posted May 27, 2013 Here's a better pic of the set up. I disconnected the linkage and reconnected the linkage and put a lot of tension on the single return spring. Also sprayed starter fluid between the intake manifold and the head, between the carbs, throttle shafts, brake booster and never got the rpms to rev. It appears I don't have a vacuum leak in those areas. With the linkage disconnected or connected with the return spring I'm still getting high idle. If I rev the motor the carbs do not come back to the original rpms....Getting some sticking on the butterflys or shafts or bearings.. Now, I bought these used at soaked the entire carb bodies sans jets in Berrymans parts cleaners. This may have been stupid. That stuff is kinda sticky and I did not remove the bearings prior to the soaking. I of course cleaned the bodies with carb cleaner afterwards but not the bearings. Maybe this is an issue, maybe not........ All three carbs have functioning throttle springs in the carb body. Unless anyone has another idea I'm going to take the cabs off, clean the bearings and take a close look at any binding I have on the throttle plates. Also going to get another return/spring arm. And God Bless the troops past, current and future on this Memorial Day. steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T-Bone028 Posted May 27, 2013 Author Share Posted May 27, 2013 What series of 40 DCOE's are you using? With soaking the whole carb in parts cleaner, it *could* contribute to the throttle shaft binding or perhaps when you swapped throttle levers right to left, maybe it was too tight? Before switching sides for the levers, the car ran/idled, correct? Do you have the same idle speed after the switch?...when the car is off, do the throttle plates come completely back to the the throttle stop? Is it a firm snap back to the throttle stop? When the car is on, if you were to turn the idle speed screw in a quarter turn, will your RPM's increase? How positive are you that the dampner hasnt slipped giving you a false reading for your timing mark? Any pinging if you were to rev to 3500-4500? Advancing your timing should increase RPM's, but I cant imagine it would contribute that much to give a 2500 RPM idle. Unfortunately, I'm just not intelligent enough to point to why your idle is that high. Only thing I can think of is your idle speed screws are too far in and is uncovering a progression hole. You should be able to see by removing the progression hole cover and shinning a flashlight while moving the throttle lever. Any readings with a sychrometer? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve260z Posted May 27, 2013 Share Posted May 27, 2013 I'm using the series "18". I had the high idle with the other levers. Let me check the progression holes and see what I can see.... Dampner has not slipped. Just built the motor. Besides, I didn't change the timing from the SUs to the Webers on the initial start up. Pinging? I haven't driven the car yet. I want to get the issue straight first. My high idle issue is just as prevalent with the speed screws totally removed. I'm going to check a few things from this thread: http://forums.hybridz.org/topic/89994-weber-dcoe-butterflies-wont-close-while-engine-is-running/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T-Bone028 Posted May 27, 2013 Author Share Posted May 27, 2013 Last thought, aside from progression holes.... If you do take off the carbs, try the paper gasket instead of the anti-vibe mounts....some experiences I've read pointed to improper seating w the o-rings causing vacuum leaks. Just a shot in the dark. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve260z Posted May 27, 2013 Share Posted May 27, 2013 Made some progress. Took the carbs off. Cleaned all the carbon build up around the butterflys with a toothbrush and steel wool. The throttle plates clear all 3 progression holes. One interesting way to gauge the closing of the throttles is just look through them in day light and see how much light is coming through. Tony D mentioned in the other thread that if they're closed they should be about water tight. Mine vary... One carb lets little if any light in. 2nd lets slighter more in and 1 carb is not so good. Light comes through around 75% off one butterfly. But, as mentioned in that same thread (above) is that the speed levers might not be accurate and or bent. One of mine was keeping the butterflys open with the speed screw totally removed. Filed that one down so it doesn't touch the carb body any more. I can get idle at about 12 degrees at 1000 rpms which is a huge improvement. Not done yet. I'm getting a second return spring and arm from Pierce tomorrow. I'm still getting a bit of hung up throttle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T-Bone028 Posted May 27, 2013 Author Share Posted May 27, 2013 I would say that's tremendous progress! Nice work. I'm no expert, but this is how I set them. Speed screws turned in to move the trottle plate edge to just before uncovering the first progression hole. Sychrometer to measure flow, and bring the highest flowing carbs to the lowest by very small adjustments to the idle speed screw. Bench set idle mixture screws to 1.5 turns out from lightly seated, and make small adjustments using best-lean method while monitoring wideband and using sychrometer. Sounds like she's almost ready for the road! I'm hoping to do some more tuning in the very near future with F16 e-tubes instead of F11 and slightly larger mains and airs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T-Bone028 Posted May 27, 2013 Author Share Posted May 27, 2013 Also..Without going into detail, I came across some classic detroit muscle today.... I love these triples! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve260z Posted May 28, 2013 Share Posted May 28, 2013 Well, got it done!! Didn't do any fine tuning. I was just happy to get the idle issue cleaned up. Car absolutely rips. With the SUs 5,200 was the max. Now it races to 6K. Didn't go any higher. Just have 100 miles on the my 3.1L build. Actually shouldn't have taken it to 6K but couldn't resist. Thanks for the tip regarding the tabs that hold the air horns and venturis in. I'll give ya some details once I get the tuning worked out. I'll do it on my build thread here: http://forums.hybridz.org/topic/103487-san-antonio-31l-z/ And the handheld video! IMG_0688.MOV Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T-Bone028 Posted May 28, 2013 Author Share Posted May 28, 2013 Congrats Steve, sounds good! And great work on your stroker build...just read your build thread. Now break that motor in so you can really open her up! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heroez Posted May 28, 2013 Share Posted May 28, 2013 Try 15 degrees. What is wideband saying? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve260z Posted May 28, 2013 Share Posted May 28, 2013 Ya, I'm to set it at 15 and see where the advance goes from there. I have the vacuum advance disconnected. I don't have a wideband yet. After running it last night I need to inspect the plugs too. ss Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.