dsommer Posted October 15, 2001 Share Posted October 15, 2001 Sounds like a plan!!! Will you be selling your 350? I'd be interested if you're willing to ship. Contact me with the specs at dsommer@mortonsalt.com LMK. ds Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pparaska Posted October 15, 2001 Share Posted October 15, 2001 Andy, I've been dreaming about using that block as a starting point also. But isn't it siamesed, like a 400? Then you'd need the steam holes, but that's just a few holes to drill in your heads. No biggie. If you got the cash, that sounds like a platform to build on for YEARS. And the fact that you could start out with the STD bore, and have 2 or 3 overbores still available in the future makes it sound like a not entirely crazy-expensive way to go. That thing is supposedly very rigid and you'd not have a worry about strength or longevity. Add me to your "crazy" list . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Bayley Posted October 15, 2001 Author Share Posted October 15, 2001 I'm not 100% sure about the siamese bores with the 4.125" block. The ad doesn't say anything about it, but you might be right. Either way, I wouldn't mind drilling out a few steam holes. A small price to pay I also agree that starting with a standard bore is a plus. I'm already at 0.040" with my 350 and any damage due to excessive nirtous application will more than likely cause more than 0.020" of damage. ds, by the time I'm done with this 350 block (and the 400 is built, I'm on a multi year plan here), the motor will be worth more as scrap metal. 350 blocks are a dime a dozen and the bottom end in my motor is made up of cheap junked parts. Sorry. -Andy [ October 15, 2001: Message edited by: Andrew Bayley ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavyZ Posted October 16, 2001 Share Posted October 16, 2001 Your wife should not get too mad at you for you wanting to upgrade to the Dart block. Why? Simple! 1) It is stronger and will prevent catastrophic failure that is more likely to happen with the garden variety 350 you have. She wouldn't want you to have problems at speed would she? This is a safety issue! (well, sort of) 2) You deserve it because you have been faithfully saving the money by not previously buying the block years ago. Having to wait this long to buy the new block is just your resolve to help your family--man I respect you... 3) The longevity of the Dart block will be second to none due to it's newness and it's strength. 4) You had to put up with the same motor in three cars...it's time for a change! 5) Christmas is coming soon, and when was the last time you had a BIG present? Also, you could tell your wife you'll get her something "special" for her if you get the new block. Andy, I just can't see any reason why you should not have that puppy in your possession before the year is out... Davy PS--if your wifey gets negative, we can always have the forum sign a petition and send it to her! Of course, depending on how your house is run, it may not go over too well...dictatorships don't like democracy much!! lol j/k Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Posted October 16, 2001 Share Posted October 16, 2001 maybe I am cheep but wouldn't a twin turbo/supercharged 350 put you in the same hp range for alot less money....and if you scatter it what are you out one 200 or 300$ 350. Like you said dime a dozen... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Bayley Posted October 16, 2001 Author Share Posted October 16, 2001 Ever since I was child, I wanted a 400 ci Small Block Chevy. I think it was mostly my Dad's fault. We would go out to dinner every Friday and I would read the local auto trader while waiting for a table. This was back in the early 80's so old muscle cars were abundant. I would always look for cars with the biggest motors in them. Then, one fateful day, my father informed me that a 400 ci Chevy motor was built on the "Small Block" platform, not the heavier Big Block platform. However, since it was the early 80's, the 400 wasn't regularly perceived as a performance upgrade. But alas, times have changed... and here is my dilemma. I've been running the same 350 small block in all three of my V8 Z's. Granted, it makes nice power (350'ish on the motor, 450'ish on the spray) but I'm just itching to build a +400 ci sbc. The only bad part, is that the General didn't make too many 400 ci motors. And if one does come across one, they start around $1000 for a junker motor. So, while I was sitting on the throne the other evening with Summit catalog in hand, I noticed that "Dart" manufactures a Chevy small block with 4.125" diameter bores. Price is listed as $1800 out the door. This might sound high at first, but I started to rationally think about things. First, buying a junk motor rarely comes with any type of guarantee. Second, if the junk motor does appear to be worthy of a build up, there will most likely be a minimum of $500 worth of machining just to clean it up. That $1800 is starting to sound like a rather good deal for a brand new 400 block. Another bonus for the after market block, is the use of traditional 350 water cooling in the blocks. A common problem I've heard of with the 400's is that even with the steam holes drilled out, the Siamese bore design was just a bad idea... period. I can't back that statement up since I've never owned a 400, but I can attest that the 350's cooling systems works (as can most of us). On with the research! At work today, I started pricing out the other major components I would need. I cam up with about $600 - $700 for a new forged crank, $300 - $500 for a nice set of forged pistons, $500 for Al forged rods, and an additional $500 for other misc. stuff (bearing, gaskets, etc...) Taking a worse case of each component, it will cost about $3200 for the short block. It sounds like a lot at first, but I later went back to the net to price out assembled short blocks with at least 400 cid, and they started out around $4500. Am I missing something here? I know that the balancer is going to cost a few hundred bucks and the solid roller camshaft will not be cheap either, but these short block kits don't include them either. Where does the extra $1200 go? So, without insulting me too badly, am I off my rocker here? I'd really like to build my own 400+ ci small block and I think these after market blocks might be the most economical (I use that term loosely) approach. My goal is to make somewhere between 500 and 600 hp, with the option to spray another 150 to 200 hp at somewhere between 11 and 12 to 1 compression. I know this sounds crazy to some, but from everything I've been reading up on, these numbers are very obtainable. The money, on the other hand... Anybody want to buy some vacation land in Florida? -Andy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Thurem Posted October 18, 2001 Share Posted October 18, 2001 I've seen a lot of Winston-Cup forged 4.125 pistons for sale on Ebay, they go for dirtcheap (really really dirty dirtcheap).. JE's and Ross etc. Thure Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Thurem Posted October 18, 2001 Share Posted October 18, 2001 Yeah, and a crank from a 305 and some really long rods and spin the $#it out of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peternell Posted October 18, 2001 Share Posted October 18, 2001 $1000 for a junker 400? Geeze I must be sitting on a gold mine where. I've got 2 .030 400's that sonic checked out good. I purchased a "400 package" deal: 2 4-bolt blocks (plan to use main studs) a hurting crank, a good flexplate & balancer and one set of rods with KB 2 valve relief pistons for a whopping $80. Deals are out there just keep looking. This seller just wanted the crank and rods from one engine for a 383 project. He had plans to build a 377 with one of the blocks but lost interest. Powerhouse or Speed-O-Motive have forged long rod 400 kits for $1,200! David Vizard's book has a 400 buildup that makes 500+ HP and Torque with a "junkyard 400 block. I guess I'm gonna push the limit of a factory 400 block. keep looking, buy a 70-72 Impala 4-door or wagon and yank the engine. If the $ flows freely in your home then sure go with the best parts you can get! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peternell Posted October 19, 2001 Share Posted October 19, 2001 http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/aw-cgi/ebayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=596549159&r=0&t=0 Here you go! It's at $157 now, see where it ends. Only 70 miles away from me. Buy it and sell the heads and crank and you got a free 400 block! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peternell Posted October 19, 2001 Share Posted October 19, 2001 How about a complete engine? http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/aw-cgi/ebayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=596918542&r=0&t=0 Something local for ya. http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/aw-cgi/ebayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=596676418&r=0&t=0 Here's another one. http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/aw-cgi/ebayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=596658819&r=0&t=0 How about a block ready for some work? http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/aw-cgi/ebayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=596833872&r=0&t=0 Brand new SCAT 9000 crank. http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/aw-cgi/ebayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=596842568&r=0&t=0 Here's a standard for 400 long block for $300 obo from the "Mortec" site FOR SALE - Small block chevy 400 long block. This is a 2-bolt 3951509 casting, 2 freeze plug, std bore block. The crank is also std,and the heads are casting "882"s. The block and crank magnafluxed ok, but the heads have not been checked. Asking $300.00 obo. BBC 427 4-bolt tall deck blocks for $300.00 each or $550.00 for both. I have several other motors for sale too, (327, 350, 355, 377, 383, 400, 402, 454). Jason, 423-246-8299. Parts located in Kingsport, TN 37664. jds@chartertn.net 10/18/01 [ October 19, 2001: Message edited by: Peternell ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Bayley Posted October 22, 2001 Author Share Posted October 22, 2001 Ya know, It seems that every time I have a few extra bucks (money doesn't flow at all at home, It's gone before I ever see it) I can't find any good deals. I recently went looking for a 400 block for under $500 but found nothing. However, from what I've just seen above (thanks Pete), there are deals to be found. I just need to be patient and keep those few extra bucks in a place where it won't burn a hold through my pocket. Ray, I've been contemplating a twin turbo setup for a few years now. I even went as far as to buy a used kit (which wouldn't fit ). I've rationalized that any more power out of my 350 will most likely grenade the lower end. This is why I want to rebuild the short block. Then I say to myself: "Heck, if I'm going to rebuild the short block, might as well do it right!" I am confident that I can make a N/A small block with all the power I could ever want in a street car. I love the idea of a TT setup, but I always go back to the simplicity of the N/A big cube motor. My old man always argues with me when I start talking about blowers and turbo's by saying; "The reason it's been so successful, is because it's so simple. Stay with that!" ...I can't argue him. -Andy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted October 22, 2001 Share Posted October 22, 2001 Just a note: Many used 400 inch blocks could benefit from an align bore job. For some reason, I find that the main saddles of 400's have wandered a bit over the years. Some are off as much a .003. Align boring of the mains can add $150+ to the cost of a used 400 block. Add splayed Milodon steel caps for your 2 bolt, and labor to machine the block for the extra bolts and the base cost of the 400 inch block can easily hit $500 to $600. The added cooling requirements and larger exhaust header tubing size(availability?)and everything else to feed a big cube engine can double the cost of the engine over the 350 platform. Torque numbers from a 400 incher START at 400 foot/pounds and go way up from there. Torque figures like 400 inch motors can produce are quick to find the weakest links in virtually any driveline combination. Andy, just remember you wife can only kill you once! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Modern Motorsports Ltd Posted October 23, 2001 Share Posted October 23, 2001 Fully agreed with Kim. A fair number on the classic fbody list are running 400's. I was all set to do it when my roller 350 landed in my lap My plan (and it would still be the same although an LT1 would likely distract me now) from all their inputs and others was: find best 2bolt stock 400 block I could, run 2 bolt main caps...if I ever got to 'big' power I'd have splayed milodon's installed (2 bolt 400's are stronger than 4bolts, 4bolts have 2 going into the 'weak' area..) -their cooling is a non-issue when heads are drilled out for steamholes, I came across tons of misinformation on that issue and finally just paid attention to those actually running them successfully, no rocket science in their combos. -most 400's were not advertised, corner shops, etc flushed out a few, I could have swapped my non-bored 327 for a 400 straight up but already had my 350 and no extra room -if built for true torque (ie. not 7000rpm) your headers aren't as key and rewarders headers 'appear' a very fair value IOM, we'll see what Jim's final experience is. -although I've grown fond of roller cammed seutps, sweet idle/low load mpg and decent upper end, I'd have to go for cubes on anything that wasn't to be a daily driver! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Bayley Posted October 23, 2001 Author Share Posted October 23, 2001 Kim - Ross, Thanks guys. I've been warned about the 4 bolt 400's. I would use splayed caps, so an OEM 4 bolt is not what I'd be looking for. Also, I agree that I would wind up spending at least an additional $500 in machining alone on a used block. Remember, I would be shooting for around 600hp and 600 - 700 ft*lbs. It will always be a street car, but it's not going to make a 30 mile commute every day. I'll try to run it on pump gas (93 octane) but if I have to mix it with +100 gas, I won't be too disappointed As for "additional costs", I've already got the 1 and 3/4 inch long tube headers. The radiator I've currently got doesn't keep the little 350 I've already got very cool. It's time for an Aluminum job. My biggest concern is actually the heads. I bought a set of the Edlebrock Performer RPM heads. While the smaller 170cc (I think) intake runners work OK on a 350, I have doubts that they will flow enough for a 400 motor. Oh well, I've wanted to do my own head porting for quite some time now. I know enough people who can help me get started and make sure I don't ruin a perfectly fine set of heads. I'm still in "long term planning" mode here, but I think I've finalized my decision over turbo(s) or a blower. Hopefully this next summer will be the last season on the 350 and I will start picking up piece for the 400 and have it ready by the end of next winter. ...It's time to get serious! -Andy P.S. Kim, she may be able to get away with it only once... but that's not going to stop her from trying more than that! [ October 23, 2001: Message edited by: Andrew Bayley ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted October 23, 2001 Share Posted October 23, 2001 Andy, Griffin built us a custom 26' x 19' crossflow with 1.5 inch tubes. Our local furnace duct maker has a CAD/CAM panagraph which made the neatest 2 piece stainless steel shroud for a 19" blade clutch fan set up. Talk about efficient air movement at idle! The guy who does the set up on the CAD actually came to the shop and made the measurements and made the shroud by the next day. If fit perfectly on the first try. Nothing moves air like a shroud that encompasses the entire dimension of the cooling area. The engine is a 12.5-1 406 which is just wild. The owner had tried a Black Magic fan, but they are only rated at 260 HP and take a pile of amps to run. Besides they don't cover the entire cooling surface. This radiator cured the extra BTU output of this 406 nicely. It cost a hair under $400 with shipping. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Modern Motorsports Ltd Posted October 23, 2001 Share Posted October 23, 2001 Kim, what did you have added 'custom' to your rad? Mounts or....just curious...I've got the 2-1.25" rows in my Griffin great rad, $270 on my doorstep including tranny cooler added. What power is that 406 at? Black Magic's don't cover the whole rad but neither can your clutch style...as we know it's the shroud that makes the difference ONCE your rad is up to snuff if your fan can't do it alone (my basic flexalite does fine with no shroud at all)...and I've always wondered why a Black Magic is only rated at 2xxhp. Liability perhaps, with todays v. tight engine bays in new cars. I don't mind pulling amps...it's hp I don't want to pull Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peternell Posted October 27, 2001 Share Posted October 27, 2001 Well Andrew, if shes gonna kill ya, you might as well get in trouble for something REALLY Good! How about a DONOVAN ALUMINUM 400 CI SMALL BLOCK CHEVY!! http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/aw-cgi/ebayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=597055079&r=0&t=0 Oh well, we can dream, cant'we. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted October 27, 2001 Share Posted October 27, 2001 Ross, As you know, crossflow tanks take a bit of room, so I opted not to have mounts added to allow for more actual core area. The 406 Came out of 1974 Nova Pro bracket car. The Nova ran consistent 10.90's with an occasional 10.80. It is a Brodix top end with your standard issue Victor Jr and porting. I don't believe that the engine has ever been dyno'd. I will check with him. This motor has been a real workhorse and held up well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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