John Washington Posted April 19, 2014 Share Posted April 19, 2014 Someone asked me the other day if I am still making Z body parts. I am, just been busy with a different "Z" lately. Just FYI, www.fb.com/zgtcar And just so you know I'm still doing Datsun parts: www.fb.com/570YZ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
texis30O Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 Good to see you are still putting quality parts on the market. I am still trying to work through things with getting my bucket of bolts on the road, let alone get the exterior options wrapped up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m1ghtymaxXx Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 (edited) You replied to an old email of mine last September but but communication ended there. I still haven't bought the body parts I need, so the same shopping list still stands. Any chance I could get a price/shipping quote on front and rear fiberglass bumpers and an MSA type 1 style airdam? I asked about a spoiler as well you said you no longer make them, I assume that still stands. Feel free to reply by private message. Thanks! Edit: Just sent another email Edited April 21, 2014 by m1ghtymaxXx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m1ghtymaxXx Posted April 25, 2014 Share Posted April 25, 2014 I'm afraid after my recent dealings with John, I feel It's appropriate I post a buyer beware, at least for international or remotely inquisitive potential customers. PM for details. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Washington Posted April 25, 2014 Author Share Posted April 25, 2014 Well, interesting. No good deed goes unpunished. I really don't have time for this, but I guess I'll have to respond now. You don't have to PM me to get the "details," though I'm happy to forward the email chain with this "prospective customer" (he never actually BOUGHT anything) to anyone who's interested. Mr. Max Cline Abrahams <m_clineabrahams@live.com> from Newfoundland Canada contacted me to inquire about purchasing a few body panel odds-and-ends (stock-width airdam, bumpers, spoiler). I probably don't have to tell anyone here that international orders are quite a headache for any business, let alone a small business. I offered to explore some options for making parts for him that are NOT part of my regular product line; AND make modifications that I don't normally offer; in order to accommodate a more cost-effective (for him) shipping option which I do NOT normally use. I gave him a rough estimate of price. Mr. Abrahams didn't like my price on one of the parts. So, instead he wanted to order a part from a competitor, have it shipped to me, have me receive it and take responsibility for it, modify it at my expense, package and reship (international with customs paperwork, etc). Like anyone with more than three brain cells and reasonable customer service, I politely declined the first time. When Mr. Abrahams then accused me of reniging on a "quote," and implied that I was gouging him on the price of the part in question, I told him I wasn't interested in doing business with him at all. Let me reiterate for clarity: Mr. Abrahams never actually bought anything, or more precisely, I declined to sell him anything after I patiently (and then more directly) explained why. If a prospective customer is going to gripe and post public complaints about a vendor that's never actually sold him anything (after the vendor going above-and-beyond due diligence in trying to help), you can imagine how much of a pain he'll be AFTER the sale. Imagine having to arrange international shipping to accomodate the inevitable return. Caveat Venditor! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m1ghtymaxXx Posted April 28, 2014 Share Posted April 28, 2014 Providing the email chain would certainly put things in context, I would happy to do the same, as the above post is rather one sided and missing a lot of pertinent information. Like John stated, I inquired about front and rear bumpers, spoiler and air dam well over a year ago, March 2013. Only last week did I get a reply after sending John a reminder once I saw this thread and realized he was still active. Only the bumpers are listed on his web site, but I inquired about the rest after another forum member informed me he might be able to offer a fair bit more than what he has listed on his website. John sent me prices for all the parts I inquired about, and very courteously offered to mold the parts in 2 pieces that could be bolted together to save shipping. After providing a subtotal and shipping estimate, he ended the email with "Let me know if that’s acceptable and I can work up an invoice for you to pay against. Thanks again for your patience" I stated that I was pleased with his prices for the air dam and spoiler, and his offer to make the parts in 2 pieces to save shipping was great however I have experience with fibreglass, and simply cutting the standard parts in half to save effort on his end would be fine. John had stated he could offer an air dam equivalent to the MSA Type 1, but sent me a picture of his Subtle Z widebody air dam, and quoted $349, the same price he charges for the Subtle Z air dam. It wasn't entirely clear whether he was posting the the $379 as the price for the standard width airdam, or as a reference. I replied asking if the standard width piece includes 240Z signal light provisions, as the one pictured did not. I asked if he could "closer match MSA's price" has it costs well under half what John's was asking for his "similar" piece. I never once stated the price was a deal breaker, but asked as an alternative, pending his parts didn't suit my needs (240Z signal lights), if would entertain the possibility of having me "drop ship" an airdam from MSA to be combined for shipping with his parts. This was a simply a question, I never once insinuated it be done for free, and it was not something I pushed. My request read politely, but the reply I certainly did not. The following replies from John were more and more emotionally charged, saying I was accusing him of misleading and gouging me, nothing of which I remotely even implied. I was told he didn't have time for "nickle-and-dime orders" like mine, (my apologies if the $849 you quoted me is only nickels and dimes to you). You went on to say you never made any offer to sell the parts, despite the fact you closed your first informative reply with the offer to create an invoice. So allow me reiterate for clarity; I came to you as a customer, cash in hand, looking to buy parts. I was given a price, you offered to create an invoice, and i was ready to make a purchase pending the missing information on the air dam. Pending it had the signal light cut outs, I asked if you could do anything on the price as it was $200 more than a commonly available "similar" piece. I never once stated the price was a deal breaker as I'd be happy to pay a premium for better fitting parts (assuming they do). As a consumer is it not within reason to inquire why one product would be well over twice the cost of a commonly available equivalent from another supplier? Pending whether or not your part had signal light provisions, a question which you NEVER did answer, I inquired about the possibility of sending you a different part to be combined in shipping. I never pushed that request, and I never implied it be done for free, yet you dwelled on it and sent me a rather immature and insulting reply based on it. It is beyond me why you would get so bent out of shape, rather than give a simple "no" with your reason why. Perhaps you misread or misunderstood me, in which case I would happily accept an apology. If my order did not make financial sense or seemed risky on your end, a simple explanation would have sufficed. I expected to pay for any extra costs you would incur in shipping an international order, and I commended your initial offer to modify the parts to save shipping, but offered you a simpler solution for the same shipping savings. The insults, assumptions, and false accusations certainly came out of left field. I was nothing but polite in my inquiry, yet you accuse me claiming you tried to gouge me, didn't bend over backwards enough, saying I would inevitably return the parts etc. While you've accused me of wasting your time, it seems you've only spent your time writing me hostile emails, having me wait over a year for the pleasure of your reply. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Washington Posted April 28, 2014 Author Share Posted April 28, 2014 As I said, I'm happy to provide the email chain to anyone who wants it, as Mr. Abrahams could have rather than selectively editing to support his righteous indignation and attempts at passive-aggressive defamation. However, to keep this short, I'll only post the "pertinent information" that will paint a more accurate picture. >...simply cutting the standard parts in half to save effort on his end would be fine. The offer to cut the parts in half was made to allow Mr. Abrahams to utilize parcel shipping rather than the cost of crating and truck freight. Cutting parts does not "save any effort" on my end. It is EXTRA effort. >I asked if he could "closer match MSA's price" has it costs well under half what John's was asking for his "similar" piece. I never once stated the price was a deal breaker, but asked as an alternative, pending his parts didn't suit my needs (240Z signal lights), if would entertain the possibility of having me "drop ship" an airdam from MSA to be combined for shipping with his parts. This was a simply a question, I never once insinuated it be done for free, and it was not something I pushed. My request read politely, but the reply I certainly did not. My reply concluded with exactly these words: "No offense intended (and none taken), but think I'll pass on this one." If Mr. Abrahams thought this was impolite, he could have simply said, "Thanks anyway," or not replied at all. Instead he can't take "no" for an answer, and chose to double-down by saying, >"...you could not to provide [sic] an air dam at a price more competitive with other vendors," and accused me of "retracting your quote," when all I gave him was an estimate. >If my order did not make financial sense or seemed risky on your end, a simple explanation would have sufficed. I tried that when I declined the order the first time. Apparently it didn't work. >but offered you a simpler solution for the same shipping savings. Again, this was done to save HIM shipping costs, as he clearly understands given the statement, "I expected to pay for any extra costs you would incur." Not only should every vendor and HybridZ member beware of actually selling anything to this guy, clearly even responding to an inquiry is going to create trouble for you. So, I suggest you ignore such inquiries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m1ghtymaxXx Posted April 28, 2014 Share Posted April 28, 2014 Well I suppose it's only fair I post the complete email dialogue I "selectively edited to support my righteous indignation and attempts at passive-aggressive defamation." Max Cline Abrahams 13/03/2013 Hi John, I'm currently looking for a fiberglass bumpers, air dam and spoiler for my 280Z. I don't see listings for the air dam or spoiler, but I recall a member posting on Hybridz that Reaction Research offers some parts not listed on your website. Would you by chance have an air dam comparable to MSA's type 1 (for 240Z signal lights), and spoiler comparable to MSA's Victory model? If so, pictures and price quotes would be much appreciated. If a shipping quote is possible, I'm located in St. John's, Newfoundland, Canada, postal code A1B 1N7. Much appreciated! Max John Washington (reactionresearch@gmail.com) 21/09/2013 Max, I was cleaning out my inbox and ran across this…not sure I ever responded? If not, apologies! I have an airdam like the MSA1, but I discontinued the spoilers a long time ago. If you are still interested in bumpers and an airdam, let me know. John Washington 480.229.1831 www.ReactionResearch.com Max Cline Abrahams 23/09/2013 Hi John, A Targa Newfoundland rally car build got in the way of my Z project, so as a matter of fact I am still looking for the aero parts. If you could send me a quote with shipping to St. John's, Newfoundland, Canada, area code A1B 1N7 that would be a great start. Given my remote shipping destination, the more I can ship at once, the easier it would be on my wallet. Perhaps I could see about having a spoiler shipped to your shop to be combined with the rest of the parts? I was leaning towards your parts as I've heard they are much better fitment compared to the other choices for Z car aero parts. Anyways I have all winter to get this sorted so a quote would be a great start. Thanks, Max Max Cline Abrahams 21/04/2014 Hi John, I saw your post on Hybridz the other day. I'm still looking for the parts below if you could provide a quote. Thanks, Max My apologies, Max. I have to admit that when I get international orders for small parts, my dread and the small profit margin conspire to tend to increase my likelihood of forgetting. Not a good customer service model, but I guess I’m only human. Please forgive me. I’m also working on a new design project: An original design rebody kit for the BMW Z3. That’s taking a lot of my time, and will undoubtedly take me a new (and hopefully more profitable) direction. However, I’ll keep selling Z parts as long as there’s a market. BMW build blog is atwww.fb.com/zgtcar. The airdam you describe is very similar to my Subtle Z airdam, except obviously not as wide at the ends. I don’t have pix of the narrow one because that’s not something I sell often. A photo of the Subtle airdam is attached. It is $379. Bumpers are $150 each. The ‘Victory’ spoiler is very similar to the one I used to sell. I might considering resurrecting that mold and trying again. I discontinued it for quality control reasons, but I have different guys laying up my parts now. Looks like MSA gets $170 for theirs, and I’m willing to match that. In the interest of keeping the shipping costs down, I’m willing to explore the possibility of making some modifications to these parts to make them ‘modular,’ ie., smaller pieces that can be bolted together on your end. I’ve done that with the bumpers before, and just converted my YZ airdam mold for that purpose. I’m doing a spoiler on my personal Z (finally building an LS1 car as a street/track/demo car to keep) and it is 3-piece with the outer ends bonding to the quarter panels. My build blog is atwww.fb.com/570YZ. If all of that is of interest to you, that would make your total $849. I believe with the modular parts I can use simple boxes for about $30 (as opposed to at least $150 for a crate), and ship via parcel shipping (UPS, FedEx, etc.) instead of motor freight. That would simplify your customs issues, as well. I would guess shipping to be in the $95 range. Let me know if that’s acceptable and I can work up an invoice for you to pay against. Thanks again for your patience! John Washington (480) 229-1831 www.ReactionResearch.com John@ReactionResearch.com Max Cline Abrahams 22/04/2014 Thanks John, If it makes you feel better, I never once heard back from MSA after a several emails over the past few years! The airdam looks good, only thing, would the narrow version have provisions for 240Z signal lights? Also MSA's fiberglass Type 1 comes in at $180, any chance of better matching their price? I've gathered that air dams are somewhat expendable, though I'm fine paying a bit more for a better fitting part. The MSA Victory spoiler was the one I had in mind, I presume production time would be on par with the rest of your parts? As for making the pieces "modular", bolt together sounds great, but I do have some experience with laying fiberglass, so if the pieces were simply cut in half for shipping, I don't think I would have much trouble grafting them back together. The bumpers and spoiler sound great. If the airdam comes with signal light provisions (just bought 240Z lights for my 280), and you can drop the price closer to that of the MSA equivalent I'd be happy to place an order. Just for comparison, the subtotal from MSA for "equivalent" parts comes to $705. If your airdam doesn't work out, would if be alright if I had an MSA piece shipped to you to be sliced in half and combined with the spoiler and bumpers for shipping? The Z3 and 570Z kits look fantastic! A local Z friend has a GTO kit awaiting install, I'm not sure if it's one of yours, I'll have to ask. On the topic of what's been keeping us away from Z cars, this has been my distraction for the past year: www.facebook.com/targaevo80 A Mitsubishi Evo III built for the Targa Newfoundland rally. Cheers, Max John Washington (reactionresearch@gmail.com) 25/04/2014 I knew there was a reason I don't like international orders... As far as the price of the airdam is concerned, if I was wealthy, I'd just give the parts away for free as a public service to the Z community. Unfortunately, that is not my reality. What I have proposed will net me significantly less than minimum wage on your order; if there's any profit in it at all. It might make it marginally easier to accommodate the two or three orders I get from Canada every year; which otherwise almost always make me contemplate saying simply: "Shipping to US addresses only." Receiving, handling, and re-shipping another company's parts for free in order to lose the opportunity to sell those parts myself, likewise doesn't strike me as a good business model. No offense intended (and none taken), but think I'll pass on this one.John Washington480.229.1831 ReactionResearch@gmail.com Max Cline Abrahams 25/04/2014 I was simply wondering if "drop shipping" of another air dam would be an option you would consider pending you could not to provide an air dam at a price more competitive with other vendors, and that is if your air dam has provisions for signal lights, as all I've seen is pictures your Subtle Z air dam. It is fair enough that does not interest you, but is this to say you are retracting your quote of $849 + shipping for the whole lot, or the option of selling just the spoiler and bumpers? Max Actions John Washington (reactionresearch@gmail.com) 25/04/2014 "Drop shipping" sounds a lot easier than it actually is, especially considering it will be truck freight. I have to be here to receive it, I have to sign for it (thus taking responsibility for it...what if it's damaged?), fill out customs paperwork for the reshipment (taking a whole different--federal and international--level of responsibility for it), etc. MSA's price is only "competitive" if you can actually get them to ship it to you. Anyone with more than three brain cells wouldn't do it FOR them for FREE, let alone at the expense of the sale of their OWN products. If you can't get them to even respond to your emails, how will you get them to ship it? I didn't make you an "offer." I was "exploring the possibility" (in fact, that's EXACTLY what I said) of making parts for you that are not part of my regular product line; AND making modifications that I don't normally offer; in order to accommodate a more cost-effective (for you) shipping option which I do not normally use. I very much resent the implication that I'm trying to gouge you on price, mislead you about what I've committed to do (or not), or otherwise not bend over far enough to suit you. I like cars, but that doesn't mean this is my hobby and I should lose money on it. This is a business for me. I feed my family and pay the rent from what little I make at it. I don't need to be insulted in top of that. I work about 60 hours a week. I don't have time for nickel-and-dime orders from folks who don't respect the time, effort, and care that I put into my products. Filling orders for folks who DO appreciate and respect my time is more than enough for me. So in summary, "no," further discussion about this does not interest me. You can get everything you need from MSA in exactly the configuration you want, at a price that's more palatable to you. Why not just order from them?John Washington480.229.1831 ReactionResearch@gmail.com Max Cline Abrahams 25/04/2014 My apologies if I have offended you John, that was not at all my intent. As a consumer I simply trying to explore my options, I was not trying to push the drop shipping on you, I was just wondering if that was alternative you would consider if your airdam did not suit my needs, mind you never once asked for that service for free, regardless, I have my answer. I was not implying you were trying to gouge me on price. You quoted me and sent a picture of you're Subtle Z air dam when you said you had a mold for something that similar MSA's type 1, I was asking for specifics and wasn't sure why it was double the price. As for why not to order from MSA? You answered your own question...I haven't been able to get a response from them, as well I've heard positive reviews on the fitment of your parts, something I can't say for MSA. I was sold on your bumpers and spoiler at the price you "quoted" and your shipping price was very reasonable. The only thing holding me back from sending payment was the lack of information on the airdam, I hadn't realized my request was so insulting. I'm sorry if $850 is "nickles and dimes" to you, unfortunately that's not the case for me. If refusing orders and insulting customers is your preferred business model, that's your prerogative. I was not aware you have an "irregular" product line, I was inquiring about the products you said stated you could provide, and even included a price for. You offered to modify the product so that it could be bolted together to save shipping which I though was very commendable, and I thought i was saving you the hassle by letting you know that I was fine with receiving a standard product that had simply been sliced in half, less effort than creating a modular part no? Your time was most appreciated I was looking forward to placing an order once I had the necessary information to do so. I hadn't expected an inbox full of hostile replies. Best of luck with your business. Max Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fyanrudger Posted April 29, 2014 Share Posted April 29, 2014 You guys couldn't come to an agreement. You're both insulted for your own possible fair reasons. I do believe Max was out of step to say buyer beware when in fact, he wasn't a buyer ("inquisitive comment" noted, but still). Time to move on, fellas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Washington Posted April 29, 2014 Author Share Posted April 29, 2014 Thanks for proving my point, Max. Please let us know how your novel international extortion purchasing technique works out for you. fyanrudger, thanks for your comment. I'm ready any time, but given Max is attempting to interfere with my business, I had to respond. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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