Wide wheel and tire thread

[thezguy]

I'm running 1" spacers with my 15" wheels to clear my brakes. No probs so far. Did you look at Mikelly's car? I never would have guessed they were 18s had he not told me. I'm just trying to discourage you from buying wheels that are hard to get tires for.

 

 

I have seen his car. I LOVE his wheels. They are actually what prompted me to buy EvilC's wheels. Alas he is to "busy" to drive an hour to his shop and release them to my driver so it looks like I'm still on the hunt for a set.

[CasperIV]

 

I have ditched the idea of running spacers becuase i just dont think it is "safe" the reasoning for running a 5 lug setup makes sense but i just dont see how " I am a fool" becuase im on 4 lugs. I have many friends with 800 plus rwhp 4 bangers on 4 lugs. They BEAT the hell out of their cars on the track and street on a regular basis and never once had an issue.

 

Ive said it once and ill say it again, This is a street car.. Im not running laguna seca or a 9 sec pass anytime soon.. Couple freeway passes and the occasional trip to the track. This is a bucket list car with numbers in mind not all out race/competition in mind. It will see 70mph 90% of the time.

 

 

Here would be the counterpoint: why wouldn't you run additional lugs? Why would you beef up the engine, diff, axles, etc, then deliberately create a weaker link? Even on a "street car" the forces/stress level is being changed. That would be like someone saying they are going to build the engine but leave the brakes OEM because they don't plan to ever use the power.

 

I would be very curious to know what 4 lug, 4 cyl, 800+ rwhp vehicles, your friends have. The only thing coming to mind that fits the bill would be SR 240s, and it would be very unusual to hear anyone doing that much work to an SR to make that power and choosing to stay 4 lug (unless it's a disposable missile car that they are just plopping the engine in until it breaks).

Edited May 10, 2014 by CasperIV

[RebekahsZ]

Going to five lug is pretty easy if you can spend some money (it's a weekend job). Get aluminum 5-lug hubs from AZC when you get their brake kit. For the rear, get billet 39 spline stubs from Chequered Flag Racing and install them when you do your AZC brake kit (you have to pull the stub for that anyway). You just need to decide if you are going to be a 4-lug or 5-lug guy before you invest in a lot of wheels. Or since you are going R230, you should go with the TTT rear kit which I believe is 5-lug. I don't want to speak for johnc, but I think I understand what he is implying. He has communicated it to me before. If you plan to do what you say you want to do (1000hp Z-car), you are gonna have to (to use one of my fathers expressions) shit or get off the pot. Maybe you have owned a 1000hp car before? That's a big number to throw out there. When you talk about compromised solutions like cobbled-together hubs to achieve something as trivial as a lug-conversion, it makes you seem like you dont really understand the magnitude of your first post. Maybe it was a typo and you really meant 100hp? Now that would make sense, as that is likely what most of the low rider Zs are really putting down. Those of us beating our Zs with less than half of 1000hp can't keep them together. So, I recommend you dial back your expectations a little, then the experienced guys will take you a little more seriously. To put that much power in a Z, you are talking about so much redesign and fabrication work that whether you are 4-lug or 5-lug is pretty dang trivial compared to the other challenges that you will face. I don't think johnc thinks you are a fool. But perhaps he (and I) think you are maybe just: fooling around. Build it and we will believe it. And if you want to build a 1000hp Zcar that you can drive farther that from the trailer to the track for one DNF pass, then winch that broken shit back on the trailer (this is basically what my last trip to the strip looked like), you need to have a couple of years and either a lot of fabrication ability or a big pile of uncommitted dollars. Try 300hp and you might get a meaningful discussion going.

Edited May 10, 2014 by RebekahsZ

[thezguy]

Rebekah,

 

Your post made me laugh a little bit.. rest a sure than many many many modifcations from brakes/chassis/motor have been made to this car. this is an earlier photo and yes i did all of it.

 

Edited May 10, 2014 by thezguy

[thezguy]

Here would be the counterpoint: why wouldn't you run additional lugs? Why would you beef up the engine, diff, axles, etc, then deliberately create a weaker link? Even on a "street car" the forces/stress level is being changed. That would be like someone saying they are going to build the engine but leave the brakes OEM because they don't plan to ever use the power.

 

I would be very curious to know what 4 lug, 4 cyl, 800+ rwhp vehicles, your friends have. The only thing coming to mind that fits the bill would be SR 240s, and it would be very unusual to hear anyone doing that much work to an SR to make that power and choosing to stay 4 lug (unless it's a disposable missile car that they are just plopping the engine in until it breaks).

 

 

At the end of the day you are right and i know it.. I didnt plan to do the swap becuase ive been around many high horspower cars that stick with 4 lug and no problems. At this point it would'nt be a bad idea to just go through with it for the piece of mind. Im still interested in re drilling the flange in the rear for 5 as i have all fabrication tools and machine shop at my disposal.

 

 

Also as far as 4 lug high power 4cyl's take your pic ive driven and been around almost all of them. Some guys go 5 lug some stay 4.. just the way it is.

[CasperIV]

At the end of the day you are right and i know it.. I didnt plan to do the swap becuase ive been around many high horspower cars that stick with 4 lug and no problems. At this point it would'nt be a bad idea to just go through with it for the piece of mind. Im still interested in re drilling the flange in the rear for 5 as i have all fabrication tools and machine shop at my disposal.

 

 

Also as far as 4 lug high power 4cyl's take your pic ive driven and been around almost all of them. Some guys go 5 lug some stay 4.. just the way it is.

 

That's my take. If I'm doing everything else to make sure my car doesn't try to kill me, why not do one of the cheaper options

 

I was just curious what the 4 lug 4 cyl cars were. For instance there aren't many RWD 4cyl cars that can get to over 500HP without moving to full race car other than a handful of SR20DET swapped cars. Most cars that are half modern 4 cyl cars capable of high HP are already 5 lug like S2000s. The 4 lug trend somewhat ended when cars were readily pushing nearly 1g skidpad and running around with over 250HP. I was just curious what branch of cardom I wasn't taking into consideration.

[RebekahsZ]

Holy smokes! You ain't kidding! A picture is worth a thousand words. I stand corrected and humbled. Crow tastes good with my morning coffee. Post up more pics ASAP. Looks like we got started off on the wrong foot. Please accept my apologies. What would it take for you to go straight axle and then you will be perhaps done with your drivetrain instead of doing and re-doing like I have done? With that powertrain I would try to go straight to a 33spline 8.8 or 9". I am finding that I am axle-limited at 400hp. And SunnyZ and I have had trouble with the sheetmetal around the nose of the diff. Surely you don't plan to have ALL THAT and not use it??

[RebekahsZ]

Im not a moderator, but PLEASE move your thread up to the V8-GenIII forum and introduce yourself. Sorry I treated you snotty, it was wrong of me. This tire/wheel forum gets so many posts from the form-over-function bunch that it can get hard to get thru the bull. Up there at the top of the site we can have a better discussion for those with potent power plants and the subsequent drivetrain and tire requirements. I'm sure you will get a bunch of folks who want to pick YOUR brain. I have 9.5" wheels on 4-lug with plenty of room for more. I have BAMF flares and an R200 IRS that is narrowed 1" on each side (it wasn't difficult), so I'd be happy to send you photos and measurements. I just down-sized from a tire with a 12" section width do to excess traction but there was plenty of room for that much tire on my car.

[thezguy]

No worries Rebekah I know 1,000hp is this mythical number that a lot of young kids throw around. I'll start a thread when the car is actually done (couple months) thanks for your interest though and if I have any other questions I will PM you

[RebekahsZ]

Sounds good but no reason to wait to post-I have been working on mine for almost 25 years and its not "done." Lots of us would love to see how you are handling things, ie I think you might be the first twin turbo I have seen on the site. Looks like it fits better than a single.

[Phantom]

Oops - been down with the flu - sorry about opening the door on the 4-lug thing. The number of lugs required is related to weight and the amount of torque actually being transferred through the tires to the ground. Light car & lots of torque OK - heavy car and lots of torque maybe not ok - heavy car on skinny tires that smoke a lot 4 lugs probably ok. Your engine work is impressive. My car has a totally stock '98 LS1 putting about 325 HP to the rear wheels and I know I'm having some issues as RebekahsZ is. All of us have broken and upgraded a lot of stuff on our cars, always finding the next weak link in the car. By spending time on all the system specific forums (engine, drivetrain, suspension, braking, etc) you should be able to get most, if not all, your questions answered. There are some very knowledgable guys here - in both education and experience - so someone will be able to help. We may get a bit "abrupt" sometimes because we all see too many young guys that basically "don't know what they don't know" that ask the same questions without searching and/or insist on doing something we all know has been tried and failed miserably. We'll challenge things we see and hear but it's usually meant in a sincere effort to save someone some time and $$$ - or real embarrassment if the car unravels in front of friends. As long as you know that everything in this car - including the unibody - was designed for about 150 RWHP with a bit of safety factor and plan accordingly you'll be fine.

Enjoy your project and keep us posted.

Bill

Edited May 12, 2014 by Phantom

[johnc]

Rotational torque as opposed to vehicle weight is my issue with 4 lugs and 1,000hp.  Multiple a 1,000 ft. lbs. by the torque converter, gearing in the transmission, and rear end gearing and you've got about 25,000 ft. lbs. at the wheel flanges - assuming perfect traction. 

[Phantom]

John - true but even with 335 wide tires, if they are street tires, they will be limited to about 500 HP actually making it to the road. As long as it's driven as a cruiser he should be fine. It will be the occasional track day that will start breaking things. Lot's of things to think about on this build and, after seeing the photo of the engine build work, I imagine a lot of thinking' is being done Lucy.

[thezguy]

Thanks for the replies and concerns. No hard feeling with the "abrupt" comments, it is to be expected with such allegations. The car does have a decent amount of supporting chassis modifications such as firewall bracing/shock tower bracing/random tubular supports/rear custom roll bar but it is far from a race car and still needs many improvements to utilize the HP it is capable of making.

[bjhines]

It would seem that the aftermarket and billet stub axles, alternate diff mounting, tunnel reinforcement, and the beefiest halfshafts are where you need to be looking. Many of those are offered in 5 lug configurations. It would seem prudent to go big all the way including lug count. Just saying, might as well.