BLKMGK Posted October 16, 2001 Share Posted October 16, 2001 I've been slowly moving forward with plans to go EFI. I've got a spare carb intake (Victor Jr.) and I've now got the name and number of someone who can convert it for me - price unknown just yet (ahem). Anyway, I've been looking into ECUs. Lately I've been investigating the cheap route although I'm really not sure it's one I'll take. Since I know that some of us really want EFI but are on tight budgets I thought I'd share some of what I'm finding out. It seems it's possible to use GM ECUs to run non-stock engines (duh)and that pretty cheap tools exist for modifying the programming. we've talked about LT1Edit already but that's an LT1 geared ECU that might not work on an engine not using an optispark etc.. That's a shame too since that's a flash programmable system. Anyway, check out these links -> http://www.diy-efi.org/gmecm/ and www.tunercat.com TunerCat looks pretty interesting. You can reprogram TBI or TPI type ECUs by swapping PROMs. Tools to reprogram the EPROMs without learning HEX exist and there's lot's of info out there for the hardware required to do the flashing of the chips. Wiring the ECUs would still be an issue but by the time you were done it still should be cheaper than an aftermarket ECU. TPIS even offers systems with harnesses that are reprogrammed for your engine - not super cheap though. Hopefully that's food for thought for someone. I'm going to wait and see what modifying this intake is going to cost before I get too excited about my progress. Would be interested in research done by others. Scottie, I know you're using a GM ECU - are you doing any programming yourself? The GN ECUs actually seem to have some of the best toolstoys from what I've seen Mike, how's your search for an ECU solution going? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikelly Posted October 16, 2001 Share Posted October 16, 2001 Jim, I downloaded the Holley info and was blown away. Only downside (As JamieT and I talked this weekend)is no wideband 02 and I can live with that. BTW, Holley is selling their version of the Victor Jr with injector bungs welded in for $269 through Summit racng. I can get you the part number if you like.. I priced converting my intake and it cost more than the Holley unit does already converted and brand new in the box. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pparaska Posted October 16, 2001 Share Posted October 16, 2001 If I get a tunable ECU for EFI/ignition, it had better be programable in something more real time than burning and swapping EPROMS! Heck, I'd go SDS before I went that route! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLKMGK Posted October 16, 2001 Author Share Posted October 16, 2001 Pete, I'vre got a link somewhere fo ran EPROM emulator that was being worked on Yeah, it's a pain to swap PROMs but price is the issue I think. Holley does indeed look good. Supposedly there's info on the DIY-EFI site for a wideband O2 from a LEV Honda that can be setup. Guy here at work is excited about it. $250 for the O2 which for true wideband is DIRT cheap. You did look up the part number fo rme before. However that intake is a bit different than mine and if memory serves t would still require rails. I'll have to look again as I seem to recall there was SOME reaosn that I didn't want to go that route. I'll have to look again (sigh). Worse comes to worse I sell my E-Bay Victor at a profit and go for the Holley if prices work out. Will dig up those part numbers, thank you for reminding me about that option! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLKMGK Posted October 17, 2001 Author Share Posted October 17, 2001 Heh, I actually posted some of this with you in mind Had a message from a friend when I got home tonight telling me about the Accell Gen7. He's apparently running it and feels it's more advanced than the FelPro. Best of all he knows where to get me hooked up with it and get it tuned. We'll see - cost is going to be a factor so we'll see. This is NOT the budget route but added tinkering I can do with a full out system is an attraction to me. Will let ya' know what I find out - am going to try and get a copy of the DFI software to check out... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted October 17, 2001 Share Posted October 17, 2001 Jim, thanks for posting that info. This topic interests me as well as someday I will go EFI. Personally if I were not looking at using boost, I'd use a factory ECM in a heartbeat. Some are better than others as far as ease of tuning the system. Its probably pretty easy even with boost to activate a extra injector or something so it could still work in my case. (maybe a simple pressure switch firing a cold start injector) At any rate, I'll try to post anything interesting. It is interesting to note that the two most frequently used computers are the '165' and the '747' in most rodders efi conversions. Some of the softwares are really getting quite good with the GUI type fuel mapping graphs and charts instead of having to either tweak meaningless series of numbers and hope you did'nt screw things up, Or, even an older way, basically hack into the machine code addresses and tweak numbers that way. Reminds me of my younger days when certain software could be made into a full working version by tweaking a few registers using a sector editor, or even tweaking stuff with just Debug in Dos. Regards, Lone Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jens Posted October 17, 2001 Share Posted October 17, 2001 Look at this do it yourself system. http://www.bgsoflex.com/megasquirt.html Must be a challenge for a programmer/datamecanic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Modern Motorsports Ltd Posted October 22, 2001 Share Posted October 22, 2001 Great thread going on, as this has been enjoyable in the past as well. Megasquirt had a GP going I thought via diyefi or perhaps another DIYEFI board they're doing for wideband O2. I really enjoyed checking out all options when I was aspiring to go EFI.....I found I had to make a complete list of all items I'd need to properly compare them. BLKMGK's talking some great/cheap tuning applications but hybridizing a harness/ECU would be lots of time=$ as well. Great part is someone cracks a new puzzle every week it seems. Speed Pro with wideband would be my mid $ choice. GM TPI if I was running that motor. A LOT to be said for tuning on the fly UNLESS you spend $$$ for a pro shop to dial it all in on a dyno (not just a WOT curve, the whole shebang). I'm not saying edel. proflo is the one but being able to sit their or be navigating with bud driving, engine running, dial a value up or down and feel the respone and react accordingly is worth tons IMO. So much guesswork and time saved which = $ for most of us. I wanteed SDS but it didn't have idle control and was really only a harness and ECU. And to date others have offered piecemeal EFI stuff for silly high $'s IMO. Even a used holley TBI system can be great just as a TB source for an MPFI setup....or for the more creative most any carb could be used in that manner......a true TB purpose built was my desire to help gain extra hood clearance but Z's seem to have more of that so perhaps their's more alternatives. When I priced it all out piecemeal doing hours of custom work on my own I came out only a few hundred less than existing complete packages. Any value to my time quickly made the existing a better V8 value....I'm kinda envious of how the L6turbo guys can tweak a mild OEM motor to decent normal V8 power using SDS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
randy 77zt Posted October 22, 2001 Share Posted October 22, 2001 i checked out the megasquirt system-it seems like the systems all there on the site.when i was in electronics i college i made circuit boards with a photo masking system you could get at electronics stores.problem with system is it is fuel only.as time goes on more people will probably post plans for home made fi ecms-may be recycle that motherboard from that old pentium 1 computor you dont use any more.i think it depends on if a person has lots of time and no money or no spare time and lots of money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLKMGK Posted October 22, 2001 Author Share Posted October 22, 2001 http://www.fuelairspark.com/ is another place to checkout systems. Those guys have the old SpeedPro system which is apparently NOT the new FelPro. So confusing! Hrm, no prices on the site either - driving me nuts. No local dealers here in VA either (sigh). I DID run into someone who's going to be going to SEMA soon who's looking for a good EFI setup. He's got a motor no one makes an intake for so he must fabricate - the analog Holley he's got now isn't working well (ahem). I've told him to come here since we're also working the problems. (He's got a SWEET GTO) I'm hoping he'll follow through and contact me via E-mail as he's looking for advice on questions to ask the folks at SEMA. He's going to be keeping his eyes open to see what's new and what's getting developed. His needs probably match ours in that he wants a system that's VERY flexible. Start out with TBI, then move to port injection - doesn't want to have to use two ECUs to do this. Holley would require him to do that with their ECU - it can't run both TBI and TPI type systems. Anyway, I'm going to try and com up wit ha list of important questions for EFI manufacturers, sort of a FAQ, if anyone is interested in coming up with some. I'll post my initial list here as soon as I have some time.... DFI GEN7 is looking like what I might go with but I need to price it all out FIRST Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted October 22, 2001 Share Posted October 22, 2001 Nice looking manifold, would save time from welding in bungs etc, 260.00 thats not to bad I guess (Well its actually robbery for what it is which is a aluminum cast manifold with a few extra machinings). The fuel rail from what I saw (also backordered) was 191.xx which also seems a bit pricey to me, billet is nice, but dang, 2 2 foot sections of tube for almost 200 bucks seems extreme, I guess someone has to pay for that CNC tooling ) Cheap fuel injection, is there such a thing? Regards, Lone Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Modern Motorsports Ltd Posted October 22, 2001 Share Posted October 22, 2001 "Cheap fuel injection, is there such a thing?" Yup, that's what makes LT1's and LS1's so attractive. Factor out motor/trans costs and the efi is practically free in comparison to a non-90's OEM motor buildup. Lt1's respond great to easy mods IF you need more, many would not (~300+hp in an uncorked Z install); I'm not up on Ls1's but I assume similarly. IMO they're too often overlooked. I've seen a fine powertrain and 4th gen car for $3500US, powertrains complete at $3k and up. Great deals IMO. Just wish they'd been available economically in '94 when I started my swap. Always a next time Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikelly Posted October 22, 2001 Share Posted October 22, 2001 Yup, thats the price I have in my book... But that is for the whole kit, including the cross over tubes and fittings. Man it is pricey! Boy oh Boy... Glad I got hooked up with the whole shibang for $950. I'm also glad my fuel pump turned out to be usable!!!! Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLKMGK Posted October 23, 2001 Author Share Posted October 23, 2001 Holy smokes, $191 is ROBBERY! The extruded rails aren't all that expensive bare and the machining can't be that much! I can get a carb intake converted for less I'm pretty sure and that manifold begins to rival the TPIS in price when you think about TB cost. I've YET to find a TBair door for a carb intake that's reasonably priced - Mike did indeed get a steal! The new NOS one is $600 in Jegs, I've not yet seen a price list anyplace but Cutler and it was bux there too. Anyone seen one reasonably priced?! Sad but true I'm leaning towards the pricey TPIS unit. Rails are $200 for it too but it's supposed to be a superior intake even over the converted carb units... Anyway, I had an interesting conversation with a local EFI tuner today. He suggested an OEM ECU over a DFI Gen7 which HE deals so that's saying something. He reccomended a MAF setup, either Ford or GM. Since I'd like to be able to tune and modify the setup after the fact so he said go GM. He's talking Tunercat for the software and said he'd teach me how it works. I'm also interested in the LT1 software - he works with those programmers BTW. He says 'Cat due to cost considerations. ECU should run $250 then there's wiring and sensors including a MAF. I've got a connection to get a Granatelli one but he's got some questions about the units I need to find out. Need to price this out fully but he felt I'd save a pile over a DFI Gen7 which could run $2400+ He thought I should spend the money on the intake. Since I've been a bit of a proponent for using a stock ECU (94-95 OBDI unit) I guess maybe this is only fitting. He seemed to feel that it would hold a tune longer in normal driving and require less "work" too. He seemed to think that the GEN7, as advanced as it is, would require mothering. He felt that I might not be able to use closed loop if my cam is very radical but that the MAF system would handle this pretty well as opposed to a MAP system - I agreed although I'm NOT sure my cam is quite that wild. He's tuned quite a few cars though so who am I to argue His attitude towards using less expensive OEM parts was refreshing to say the least - he knew his stuff and we talked for about a half hour. Hrm, he had a pretty low opinion of OEM O2s too and feels they're "worthless" for tuning. I disagree SOME but not by much (shrug). BTW - GEN7 Wide Band O2s have a listed lifetime of just 40hours I've heard of an OEM unit used in Cali for LEV Hondas I may look further into for "just" $280 that would need a circuit built for it (sigh). One thing at a time I guess but I know someone who can build the circuit who's interested. Updates as I learn more - I'm off to learn about TunerCat.... P.S. Thought just struck me hard.. I had discarded LT1 ECMs previously due to the Optispark. Can those be used on a regualr distributor?! Hrm, seems I'll be making another phone call tomorrow [ October 22, 2001: Message edited by: BLKMGK ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted October 23, 2001 Share Posted October 23, 2001 How bout this, I was looking at throttle bodies, how about a 750 CFM mech sec. carb, yank the metering and fuel bowls off both ends, replace with billet plate and a gasket. Would'nt that work as well? (assuming you could get the carb cheap, a billet 4 bbl TB is like 450.00 or there abouts from Whites Machine (I think thats the name of the joint)). Just a thought when I was considering options. It'd be progressive which would help with the throttle tip in problem. Regards, Lone Ps: For fuel rail, I'll find some cheap off a TPI system, they look reasonably good and go cheap on Ebay (like WAY less compared to 191.00! ) [ October 22, 2001: Message edited by: lonehdrider ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pparaska Posted October 23, 2001 Share Posted October 23, 2001 quote: Originally posted by BLKMGK: [QB... His needs probably match ours in that he wants a system that's VERY flexible. Start out with TBI, then move to port injection - doesn't want to have to use two ECUs to do this. Holley would require him to do that with their ECU - it can't run both TBI and TPI type systems. [/QB] Jim, are you sure about this? If you go to the Holley site and check out each system, the 950 Commander is listed for both the new TBI (Pro-jection) and the new MPFI systems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLKMGK Posted October 23, 2001 Author Share Posted October 23, 2001 He's got the older analog system now - he wants to run that first, then goto port injection. He actually talked to Holley about it and they said that such an upgrade wouldn't work and that it would be two diferent ECUs. I'm not sure if that means the Commander 950 w/TBI couldn't be upgraded to a port type or not. If he writes me or posts here I'll be sure and ask. Personally the TBI stuff doesn't interest me. I'm seriously considering Mike's idea of using the Holley intake and selling both of my Victors Summit has it listed on backorder and I don't know what the rails cost of what they look like etc.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Modern Motorsports Ltd Posted October 23, 2001 Share Posted October 23, 2001 "I'm seriously considering Mike's idea of using the Holley intake and selling both of my Victors Summit has it listed on backorder and I don't know what the rails cost of what they look like etc" looks great! I'll be curious as well to see what's offered up for fuel rails, they'll be different from proflo and other top bolt down styles I've seen as those bosses appear to be sidemount. Holley has added the rear boss for throttle bracketry which is nice as others have not included it. PN and pic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikelly Posted October 23, 2001 Share Posted October 23, 2001 Hold fast and I'll post prices for their fuel rails tonight... They are identical to the units that came with my Cutler system. Nice billet units! Mike Kelly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLKMGK Posted October 24, 2001 Author Share Posted October 24, 2001 Trouble is you can't just use "any" rail - it must be machined for the intake you're using I've briefly pondered a carb as an air door but it must be modded for a TPS Ford TBs are somewhat cheap though and it's possible to adapt one of them usually if you use a carb type intake. (shrug) Spoke to one of the guys at the local shop today about the Optispark thing (woman's car back in the shop fr a miss again BTW). The guy I spoke to was different than the last night and not as sure about this stuff. He felt that "sure" it COULD be adapted but I'm going to try and double check with the other guy when he's in. (sigh) Prices for this are adding up..: Intake (TPIS) - $1K+ TB - $TBD Pump - $250? Hopefully less Filter - $60 Linefittings - $50 maybe as I've got spare stuff. Injectors - $? Can probably do with Ford 30lb ones ECU - $250 supposedly, haven't found a price. 94-95 LT1 GM PCMECU Harness - as much as $600 MAF - $250 or so Other sensors unknown but figure MAT, water temp, TPS?, O2, knock sensor, and external knock module at least. We'll see, Mike you listening? This might be a path for you too. Can provide POC and # if you'd like... P.S. Found this tonight -> http://www.ccsmotorsport.com/fi_parts.htm [ October 23, 2001: Message edited by: BLKMGK ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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