Fuel Infection II (continued on Mike K.'s)

[Owen]

Ross, I have some cutdowntosize pictures of

my engine here with the MiniRam2. I don't

know what the difference between the one and two either. http://www.homestead.com/s30z/files/quo.htm

Owen

 

 

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http://www.homestead.com/s30z/index.html

[Guest Fast Frog]

Ross, Owen, and others:

 

Owen, that website you posted with the mini-ram shows a MR that is almost exactly the same as the MR I bought 5 yrs ago cept the one displayed on the website has an adjustable fuel reg attached to the fuel rail, whereas, my adj fuel reg was not attached to the unit and had to be attached to what ever I could find in close proximity to the fuel line.

[clint78z]

Sorry about the bummed link it is http://whiteracing.com/ and it is very informative . I would recommend SDS website for all your EFI general info . A jig will be very useful when welding in the injector bungs . You can buy Fuel rail bar stock which is fairly cheap . With good planning and some machine work you can save alot of money .

[BLKMGK]

Clint - those are just the maps - NOT the actual software. Looks to be a damned informative site though! I think I DL'ed their maps awhile back to try and learn something about the DFI after I'd given up on mine.

 

Owen, that TPIS manifold is SCHWEET looking! Geez, convert a single plane intake or hunt down one of those - tough decision. Gonna' have to think about this awhile. No room to run the inlet over the radiator ala 'Vette? Bummer.

 

If TBI is an option check out these guys - they've been doing single and dual TBI systems for awhile now -> http://www.turbocity.com/EfiMainPage.htm

They've been around awhile and specialize in turbos etc. Oddly enough they don't seem to do any TPI work.

 

Here's a link to some injector bungs. $70 some odd dollars - cool! That's cheap IMO. Then you just have to do the rails, I'll try to find details on doing that - the hole requires a stepped shoulder of some sort and maybe a bushing. http://members.aol.com/bigturbo1/misc.html

 

As a side note - White Racing offers an interface box to stock wiring harnesses that looks EXACTLY like the box I got for my Mustang from Duttweiler - black tape and all. Hrm! No conversion kits I can find for carb'ed cars though but I'm still looking

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by BLKMGK (edited September 19, 2000).]

[clint78z]

Here is some more good stuff

http://www.sdsefi.com/techrail.htm

http://www.sdsefi.com/techinta.htm

http://www.sdsefi.com/techtheo.htm

http://www.sdsefi.com/techmods.htm

http://www.rancefi.com/

 

If you look under the Accel DFI description at white racing you can download the actual software as well . It is actually the full version .

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by clint78z (edited September 19, 2000).]

[Guest Fast Frog]

Owen:

 

I've got a floppy with my 383 setup programed on it with Calmap (Accel DFI). Would it be compatible with your ECU?

[Modern Motorsports Ltd]

OK, my initial goal sides learning a lot on what I can mix/match in planning was to see how I could create a multi port injection system for less than Edelbrock's $1925US system which isn't the best but is a good midrange system as I understand it. After looking at many websites and bargain hunting parts I have this list of all parts as new and I'm not less than the Edelbrock system and their's a lot more for me to match/coordinate/resolve.

 

ECU and wiring harness $800 minimum (new)

airdoor $500

Injectors $400 (SVO 36lb/hr brand new)

fuel pump $267 (porsche 930, advised by SDS)

fuel rails $100 (material and labour)

intake/bungs etc $100 (have the intake, bungs and labour)

 

 

This brings me to $2170 not including an O2 sensor/bung ($70 or so) and possibly a laptop of required. So if I find an ECU for 1/2 price I'm still at $1770 which for a $155 saving over edelbrock's setup isn't worth my time. And I felt fuel rail and injector estimates were conservative (I won't be doing that, I want injectors in the exact right location!).

 

comments/corrections...poor estimate??

 

Found an SDS 4 banger unit brand new (fuel only) that SDS would make an 8 cyl. ECU/harness for $617US total (their list is $843) FWIW.

[Owen]

Fast Frog,

Do ya have any maps for your Haltech I can

use?

Thanks,

Owen

 

 

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http://www.homestead.com/s30z/index.html

[clint78z]

I would say quote is pretty good, not a cheap thing to do . Here is what I would do to save some $$ .

 

ECU and wiring harness $800 minimum (new)

Probably close on this one

 

airdoor $500

(use an old carb pull veturies and place temp sensor in air cleaner, no idle control)

 

Injectors $400 (SVO 36lb/hr brand new)

Get used ones I got mine cheap thanks to Scottie

 

fuel pump $267 (porsche 930, advised by SDS)

A Ford 460 or chev 454 pump from a junkyard should do, do a flow test under pressure to check .

 

fuel rails $100 (material and labour)

intake/bungs etc $100 (have the intake, bungs and labour)

Yes a tad more

 

The Edelbrock sytem is a good value, personally I don't think you would know the difference for a Chev 350 (not a shot, just does not require it like a turbo motor). Never underestimate DrewZ dual TBI, it is a pretty hot setup .

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by clint78z (edited September 20, 2000).]

[BLKMGK]

Your estimates look close to me. Shop around for an ECU and wiring used (duh) and I'd not use a fuel pump that's as expensive as that. How much HP are you trying to hold? Is this an in-tank pump?

 

Sources for in-tank pumps should include Walbro and Bosche. Look at some of the HPs of other cars to see if one is close to yours that you could pirate. Many of the Hi-Po Mustang pumps come from things like little Dodge turbos (doh!). Where do the Buick racers source their pumps? What about a Malory, Essex, or Paxton pump? I've got a Paxton pump on the Mustang - loud as heck but it's not yet rubber mounted. Big as a coffee can too but it'll flow 650hp without breaking a sweat.

 

Also FWIW - I'm told that Coast High Performance and Keith Craft will both build Spyder or Victor Jr intakes as EFI if you ask them. Not sure on cost though but I'm going to check into it

 

Maybe adapt a Ford throttle body or pair of them for an air door? I've seen 90degree adapters with them mounted on there. That would save a good $200 right there.

[BLKMGK]

BTW - shop around Holly's WEB site. It sux but they DO have a Projection unit that appears to be "new". I have no idea what it's pricing is and their close up shot of it is 404 but it might be worth asking about...

[Modern Motorsports Ltd]

So how best would one deal with setting up their idle if you use an airdoor/converted carb? Set your fuel maps for appropriate rpm's as per normal and it'll add fuel according to rpm? I'm not up on mapping and haven't had time to read about this aspect of the injection so if it's too redundant just say so. But I'm wondering how one would setup the TPS switch if your idle adjustments might alter it's initial location slighty? (ie. is idle EFI setup independent of TPS switch?) Not sure how I'd control cold choke other than using a choke on the airdoor/carb and then programming into the ECU appropriate maps for 'coolant temps' and then it would fuel it accordingly assuming I timed a choke operation in phase with coolant temps?

 

Opinions on what carbs would be best for converting? I have numerous Qjets, all 750's, no 850's. (sounds like fun just to cut up an older/spare carb even if it gets trashed;^) As well I have two Holley 1850's (600cfm). I'm strongly against altering my current 600cfm edelbrock d/2 it's resale value although I like it's electronic choke that could carry over. So it's really the bottom plate of the carb that's fully linkage controlled that I need to keep and top airhorn somewhat for entry 'smoothing' as well as some feature for cold air idle/bypass method...right?

 

back to studying

 

PSS I'm going to THE dudes for suspension this Sat. am hopefully to have him look at what would be involved to convert my car to front steer and improve bump steer. Custom suspension/total design is their business and he has the goods to take your suspension right thru travel in his shop and read out it's characteristic changes with travel etc. He was fully intune with all requirements and is a roadracer himself so would have a fine approach. If I understood correctly he said Ackerman is only an affect if your steering knuckle is offset in on my rear setup. If it's parallel with car geometry then they can flip 180, otherwise they have to do their customizing. He'd use a 280z rack and just tack up mounts and test out till it's in the dead right spot and then fully weld among other parts:-) Makes me feel it's better spent than EFI mod right now (assuming all height clearance can't be gained by fully tweaking oilpan, we'll check that first). EFI still in full planning though:-)

 

What are good places'URL's to find used/cheap SVO injectors?

[clint78z]

Ross I don't think having a choke is an option, use the good ole right foot . Most systems use a Map sensor to give amount of fuel . The TPS is only used to see how quickly you stab the throtle, like a power shot.

 

I would use the carb that has the least crap on it and is easy to mount the TPS, a smooth transitons in airflow .

 

Go to the Merkur boards and buy the 370cc injectors used .

 

Fun stuff here, keep us updated !!

[Modern Motorsports Ltd]

Just got a good idea from a friend on the idle/cold idle issue. I could do this with one (or two if needed) plumbed into a carb spacer to air cleaner interface (I have a 'shalow' Vic. Jr. I was going to 'space' up)

 

" On your idle speed issue. Why not just use an OEM Datsun Air Flow

Regulator? You know, that funky little thingy that sits on top of the OE

EFI intakes that has a BOSCH style connector on it and has 2 hoses? One

hose goes before the throttle valve and the other goes tot he intake just

after it. This device allows a little air to bypass the throttle valve when

the engine is cold to keep the RPM high enough to overcome all the cold

friction, cold viscous oil, etc. It has 12 volts supplied to it while the

engine is running. With 12 volts applied it will close off the little

passage way in it over time, typically 5-10 minutes. This way you don't

have to use a fast idle cam to get the RPM up for engine warm up. Just a

thought any how.

If you use the choke parts on a carb body, just remove the choke butterfly

and only use the fast idle cam and program your EFI, as you mentioned, to

give the added cold enrichment."

[Modern Motorsports Ltd]

Just got this v. interesting IMO concept from a DIYEFI member. What's needed to play with GM ECU's I have to check out a lot further for that cost aspect.......pasted in:

"First, consider using a hacked GM ECU with MAP.

 

 

Now you need no "air meter" yet the ECU works as designed full time.

 

 

Most IACS are removable - just re-plumb to accommodate the carb. Same with

EGR etc.

 

 

Ask Dr Bruce about re-programming GM units - there is a wealth available here.

 

 

Now - depending on how far off the deep end you want to go, you may want to

consider leaving the main/power jet circuits and carb active - just plugging

off the idle and transition, removing accelerator pump and choke and doing a

good clean.

 

 

One major advantage of carbs over FI is that at near WOT the fuel flow thru

the venturi can add a lot of charge cooling. Vizard reports that with high

power engines with good carburation, he has seen frost form on the intake

manifold during dyno runs.

 

 

But they stink at low mid throttle.

 

 

So use the GM ECU to control some smaller injectors, then jet the main, power

lean and stage the fuel into the system at higher loads.

 

 

Most ECU's run open loop anyway at high load. Just keep trimming back the

extra richness from the ECU and adding it back by up jetting the carbs.

 

 

A little more fangle - but all the benefits of a cheap, complete - including

EGO and anti-knock spark, easily hacked and tunable ECU with a lot of DIY

support.

 

 

Also the size of the injectors could be reduced to 19 lbs or so - very

standard small block size - translate cheap and available - giving much finer

control of the low mid range. As the venturi fuel comes in, the ECU Al

Bundies it - Don't Know - Don't care - and trims accordingly. A few

iterations to get the best combined effect - and you are there. The jetting

doesn't have to be perfect - just good - the ECU trims out the rest.

 

 

The Victor Jr has excellent F/A distribution in the upper power/load/rpm range

and the Gm ECU gives you all the EFI low mid torque without sacrifice of the

top.

 

 

If frost on the manifold at full throttle appeals to you - it's worth

contemplating. "

[Drax240z]

Ross, talk a little more to DrewZ about his dual TBI setup, he's got all the goodies there on his car... Sounded like a pretty slick setup to me when he was explaining things to me. (custom burnt chips, etc)

 

 

 

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"THE STREETS WILL FLOW WITH THE OIL OF THE NON-BELIEVERS"

 

Drax240z

1972 240z - L28TURBO transplant on the way!

http://members.xoom.com/r_lewis/datsun.html

[clint78z]

Ross that post from the DIY EFI is off in lala land . That is way too complicated and a pain to tune, unreliable too . I would use a Chev IAC unit and a custom spacer . The nissan will work, but chev one may be able to be used to dirctly control rpm from ECU . You could use the Nissan unit like a high idle just put it on a switch .

[Modern Motorsports Ltd]

quote:

---

Originally posted by clint78z:

Ross that post from the DIY EFI is off in lala land .

---

 

Now he was honest saying "Now - depending on how far off the deep end you want to go, "

 

I never said that'd be easy tuning wise, could be cheap partswise.. but anyhow, I enjoyed the twist in approach.

 

So thinking lots about multiport if an ECU/injector deal screams at me but meanwhile I see no harm/lost $ in pursueing a TBI setup if parts come cheap enough. Here it lists what I understand to be needed harware wise to make your own EPROM's http://www.diy-efi.org/gmecm/faq/starting.html

 

eprom burner $139 US (can be had for $90 in bulk...that'd be a nice savings!)

eraser $49

memcal adaptor $4.20

spare Eproms $1 each, say 5 for starters

 

so $197.20 for hardware and software can be had freely

 

I am actively looking for a dual carb/cross ram intake like Drewz but having my Victor Jr. a single 4bbl TBI would be welcome as well if it could support my setup (can TBI injectors be upgraded?? I'd guess that's pricey, pretty sure their airflow is fine)

 

Is a GM TBI setup sensitive to backpressure? I've heard the 4Di setup is and you need a 3/8's minimum return line or it acts up. Be nice to use my OE lines for now (keeping in budget).

[Mikelly]

Based on what JTR states about TBI setups...I'd be up for this type of swap on my single 4 Victor Jr. as well. I'm curious is GM has an OE TB setup that would support my current powerplant???? Holley does have the 4DI, but I don't know that it would be sufficiant for my system...

 

Mike

 

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"I will not be a spectator in the sport of life!"

mjk

[randy 77zt]

tbi throttle body units-the unit that came on 454 ci truck engine had 2" throttle blades.you might max out on injector pulse width with a thirsty motor but would work on a mild (300 hp or so) small block.it would not be hard to build an adaptor plate to put a tbi unit on a 4bbl manifold.you could probably get every thing from a truck wrecker for 2 or 300 bucks.then start burning chips.not very high tech but how many million gm trucks are on the road with this set up.