Guest Anonymous Posted January 9, 2002 Share Posted January 9, 2002 wow im impressed, talk about your research and visual aid, sometimes i wish i had the supra motor, the amount of modifications i have done to my motor are endless and theres no way i could reach 600rwhp. sigh. theres no supra guys changing valve springs and port their head like i have to do with the l28. technology improves vastly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony240ZT Posted January 9, 2002 Share Posted January 9, 2002 Coming soon to my `72 240Z's engine bay Those damn piggy back computers can get pricy, I'm dropping in a Wolf3D EMS, they were able to machine my Cam Possition Sensor to work with the system. The 2nd Gen RX7 injectors are 550cc/min, the low impendence ones are hard to find, but they are out there. You definately don't need to spend big $$$ to get them and get a fuel rail made up. I'd say $200 for injectors and $120 for the rail + a few beans for AN fittings and such. I can get an AFPR for under $100, so $900 is a bit out there!?? Hopefully I'll get some engine mounts made up this weekend, and then take mesurements on my drive shaft. I already have the parts to paste together. I'll keep you posted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scottie-GNZ Posted January 9, 2002 Share Posted January 9, 2002 In response to the I/C discussion, I ran the big NPR which was good up to about 400rwhp before it started to have more than normal pressure drop. Currently I am running a custom I/C with 2 Cartech (Corky Bell) cores. It is supposed to have a flow rating of about 850CFM which should be good for about 530+hp, using a conservative 1.6CFM/HP rule of thumb. The I/C is one component you do not want to skimp on, so get the best I/C you can afford that will support your goal. Do not start with an I/C that was designed to support less HP than a stock L28ET just because it is cheap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLKMGK Posted January 13, 2002 Share Posted January 13, 2002 Heh, don't let this thread die yet RX7 injectors I'm told to look for should flow WELL over 550ccs. Apparently those aftermarket rails use top fueled injectors, maybe the secondary injectors on an RX7 and not the primary? I wasn't given real clear info on those injectors and they require an aftermarket rail anyway supposedly. There ARE rails out there for Bosh injectors but I'd need like 72lb injectors and those are BUX. The custom rail is $347 too I'm looking for a side port 750 or 820CC injector. Talked to a guy tonight who said the stock rail can be modified for AN fittings and flows fine - cost is $50. He runs his STOCK 550cc injectors at 100PSI and they flow enough for his high powered application. He says the Skyline has 820 or 850cc injectors that would work but cost $150 each I don't wish to run 100PSI - no way! So this is a possible alternative maybe if I can find those injectors. Heelp! Also - he's able to sell me a cast single turbo manifold, T66 turbo, pipes, fitings, etc. etc. for $3k! That's about $2K less than some of the other kits out there that use longer runner welded up headers. T66 I don't know from Adam but he claims it'll make mid to high 500RWHP for me and not spool like a slug. He's out of Detroit and has access to lots of OEM supplies which is cool .71 AR I think we were talking about - turbo would run me $900 or so. Good price? Small turbo? I'm turbo ignorant (sigh). I've got to get fuel and electronics squared away first! He told me there's a VW pump I can run on the Z as an inline comes from a "A1 Rabbit" and is made by Bosch? Ring bells anywhere? Might be worth us looking into here - he says it comes in a rubber sleeve and isolated mount so it's pretty quiet. He's got an in-tank Bosch pump for the Supras that supports tons of power but I think I'm going dual Walbro GS3341s. He claimed the Bosch only pulled 12amps though which is pretty nice! P.S. For those pondering the Supra's IRS - it's rear gear on a 6speed car is like 3.13:1 and the 6th gear is like .79 so keep that in mind.... [edit] Oh, and I'm dying to know how the older Supra engine works out in a Z! I don't think they make the power as easily but they DO make big power done right. PLEASE keep us posted - pics too, lot's of pics. As for porting heads etc. - yeah they do. Supra guys change cams and port heads just like everyone else. They just don't seem to NEED it as badly as others. Remember - this is a 4valve engine and that helps. The intake has some funky flow issues too and the EGR can overheat the #6 cylinder so there ARE some areas to be careful with. Some guys are spinning them 8K+ though Some stuff to read-> http://www.powerhouseracing.com/catalog/supra_turbo/supra_turbo.html and http://www.supraforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=20269 (watch the video - wow!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tim78zt Posted January 22, 2002 Share Posted January 22, 2002 Please don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to talk anyone out of doing the Supra swap! I'm as curious as the next guy. But the words "dyno queen" sure sound appropriate for a built Supra motor! Just for fun I want to try to post a dyno graph of a turbo Z. Just in case it worked (thanks again, Scott!) compare the shape of the curve with the Supra's curve in the other dyno graph a few posts above this one. This Z is a street car. At 50 mph it takes it less than 5 seconds to double that speed on the dyno! Sometime look at the time and speed parameters instead of rpm on a dyno graph and you will see this Z hangs with the Supra up to 4000rpm, but then you realize at this point you are exceeding 100mph and you could draw unwanted attention if you don't back off soon. Point being this car, before you put a Supra motor in it, is capable of being a ton of fun on the street. But I would still love to see a Supra install for the sake of science. Tim78zt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLKMGK Posted January 23, 2002 Share Posted January 23, 2002 Thanks Davy - will keep that in mind Tim, have you ever seen a Supra take off on the highway? I can't see that graph but let me tell you, when a Supra hits 4K and the second turbo comes on the power rush to 7K is INCREDIBLE! My car's pull was done in 4th gear - from 4th I was running 70MPH when the power rush hit - at 7K I was at 120. The time between 4K and 7K is so quick that I bump the rev limiter fairly often if I've not been driving the car recently and am in third. On the highway at 50MPH if I were going to race I'd put it into 3rd and brake boost it a little to get boost up. When you let your foot off the brake the car takes off like a scalded rabbit! In 3rd driving down the road at WOT the car actually tries to dart from side to side a little as it accelerates. It's hard to explain but you're doing 85+MPH so fast it's sick. 4th doesn't dart I don't think but it does lift the nose. Unfortunatly my dyno run won't show me time just RPM vs speed or power vs speed. From 80mph to 110mph I'm pulling over 350RWHP in 4th... P.S. Just found "time" in my dyno vewer! From 6.5secs into the run where I'm going 70mph till the time I hit 115mph is just under 4secs on the dyno. That's 20mph above your starting point but I'd be in third for that pull in a race, not 4th. My dyno curve is an ugly and poorly tuned example but it can be found here The dip in the curve is turbo #1 running out of breath with #2 not being properly prespooled. A mod done to my car causes this and will be reversed "soon". Normally the transition would be higher up and MUCH smoother (shrug). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Azel Posted January 23, 2002 Share Posted January 23, 2002 Tim78zt, I can't see that graph. Like I've said time and time again, the 2JZ is one helluva motor. I'm interested in seeing a twin-turbo graph. A buddy of mine has a 95 auto. He used to run a T04 but decided to switch to twin HKS and he prefers the twins. He claims to have cut down lag dramatically and is making more power than with the big single. One of these days when I get the Z running I'll challenge him to a race. BTW, how many horses are the most powerful L6's producing? I've heard Tod Kaneko's is making 526 at the wheels. That should be enough to take out many of the most powerful Supra's. Anyone concur? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavyZ Posted January 23, 2002 Share Posted January 23, 2002 quote: Originally posted by BLKMGK: Heh, don't let this thread die yet ...He told me there's a VW pump I can run on the Z as an inline comes from a "A1 Rabbit" and is made by Bosch? Ring bells anywhere? Might be worth us looking into here - he says it comes in a rubber sleeve and isolated mount so it's pretty quiet. He's got an in-tank Bosch pump for the Supras that supports tons of power but I think I'm going dual Walbro GS3341s. He claimed the Bosch only pulled 12amps though which is pretty nice!... BLKMGK, the "A1 Rabbit" pump is most likely a 1st gen VW chassis for the Rabbit and most likely the Scirrocco(sp?) as well. VW currently runs an "A4" chassis for the Golf (Rabbit). Davy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tim78zt Posted January 23, 2002 Share Posted January 23, 2002 Sorry Guys, I haven't figured out how post just the image part of the file. I'll email the file to you though. All it really shows is the point both BLK and I are making: up to a moderately illegal speed a Z will hang with a Supra; after that the only limit is your insurance agent's sense of humor and your MVR. Azel,better be sitting down when Tod tells you how much he spent to get 500+ out of his motor. And he MANAGES a performance shop (Mazdaspeed)!! I don't know if you have ever stated your budget for your motor publicly, so you may be willing to spend $$$$, but you won't have to! You can build a very respectable engine that is not a dyno queen but has plenty of torque to get you in several kinds of trouble. It just won't be as much fun as a 2JZ. By now you have seen BLK's twin-T graph. The only drawback I see (and I am a BIG fan of the Supra)is there is not more usable power/torque in the mid-range. Where it really shines is above 4000rpm and 120mph. I just don't live in that neighborhood. I can't wait to see the development on BLK's car. Please keep us posted!! I want to see more of these swaps into Zs too, and his work will encourage that. Tim78zt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scottie-GNZ Posted January 23, 2002 Share Posted January 23, 2002 BLKMGK, I know SupraTTs are FAST and despite how QUICK my car is (note the distinction), I would never mess with one on the top-end. However, that 70 to 115mph time is a little hard to swallow for anything but a 500+rwhp engine. That time might be because it was done on a dyno as opposed to on the road/track. For a comparison, I pulled out the datalog for the run I had against that SupraTT and my time was 5.8. On that run, the car died big time on the top-end and maybe that cost me .2, but still would have been a far cry from a modded SupraTT. Despite me questioning the time, I am not sure I would want a piece of you from 100mph on up Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLKMGK Posted January 23, 2002 Share Posted January 23, 2002 Even scarier Scottie is that that was a 4th gear pull! In 3rd gear the acceleration is also really fast but to an obviously lower MPH. As I said - the kind of race we're talking about here (not getting into REALLY illegal speeds) is one I'd run in 3rd gear NOT 4th. Not sure how we could extrapolate the acceleration or if it would be quicker in the lower gear. Have to drive the car tomorrow so maybe I can see how high 3rd will take me Heh, it's actually a shame I'm not driving down Scottie or you could take it for a test spin. I have NO doubt that the acceleration is quicker on the dyno BTW. Supra people forever bitch about how the dyno doesn't provide the same resistance and that they make more power on the street with higher resistanceairflow over the intercooler Whatever - it's a tuning tool is all. It was fun to tell a Camaro guy the other day that I made 100+HP more than he did with a 3liter straight six. He was proud of his 13.1 1/4s too but I kept my mouth shut since mine hasn't seen a drag race yet. I'll put my Dynojet data files out there so you guys can look at them. First run was right off the street, still hot, second was just an ECU reset, third was high boost - no race gas. It's not pretty as I said - midrange shouldn't fall off the way it does.. As for HKS twins being less laggy that's weird. Most supra people don't want thm and claim that their lag is REALLY bad. I'm considering something like a T66 - we'll see. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Azel Posted January 23, 2002 Share Posted January 23, 2002 OK that's enough!!! NO MAS!!!!! See just when I was about to drop in my L28ET, you guys have to do this! Hmmm....a Supra transplant really would be nice though.... A cradle crafted of 1 3/4" steel tubes should work. Wonder how massive the trans is? There should be plenty of clearance for the turbo mani. Hmmm.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLKMGK Posted January 23, 2002 Share Posted January 23, 2002 Here's my dyno data -> http://www.blkmgk.com/development/testweb.nsf/4691e0edd8a01bd6852569ae0075e9c4/1f346a0fe05a68fd85256b45000a73fa/$FILE/Runs.zip You'll need th eDynojet runviewer to look at it. I'm going to check out the L28 dyno run and overlay it with mine I did that with a friend's Lighttning ! His HP wasn't quite as high but it was MUCH earlier and flat across the RPM band. Supras are more peaky but geez, when the turbo spools it's party time! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oltmann Posted January 24, 2002 Share Posted January 24, 2002 quote: Originally posted by Scottie-GNZ: However, that 70 to 115mph time is a little hard to swallow for anything but a 500+rwhp engine. That time might be because it was done on a dyno as opposed to on the road/track. I downloaded that software as well as the data files. You can set it up to display a Speed/Time graph, but all this tells you is how long it took to spin the dynos flywheel to X mph. In other words, mostly useless information. Sorry if I'm stating the obvious, but I got pretty confused by this thread until I took a look at the software. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLKMGK Posted January 24, 2002 Share Posted January 24, 2002 Hrm, not quite a "flywheel" - it's a GIANT drum with a great deal of inertia. Having said that - to compare it to a drag race datalog isn't fair. There's no wind resistance and there's little in the way of drag on the drum unless you set it up to drag. It's worthwhile to compare to another car dyno'd much the same way though. Looking at the two runs together it's tough to compare them. My run starts at a slightly higher MPH, the ZXT spools up, catches up, seems to run even with my car for a second, then my turbo spools and pulls away as the ZXT's curve stops at it's redline. IMO if this had been a side by side race on the highway the results shown here would be the result of the Supra driver being stupid leaving his car in the wrong gear For the MPH range that this "race" would've taken place n I feel the Supra would've been better suited to a 3rd gear pull. My pull ended at 119mph (higher RPM pull tho'), the ZXT at a "mere" 88mph. In short - I think this is inconclusive... P.S. Add torque as the third axis on the graph. The Supra is ahead, is briefly surpassed by the ZXT, and then as #2 spools up leaves the ZXT in the dust. Peak trq on the Supra (STD) is 437 and 288 from the ZXT. Just sort of interesting to look at IMO. A/F is interesting too. Scottie, any chance you'll dyno your car anytime? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
74_5.0L_Z Posted January 24, 2002 Share Posted January 24, 2002 Hey Guys, There is a Supra TT powered Z on E-bay. Sweet looking car currently at $9000. It has the later engine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLKMGK Posted January 25, 2002 Share Posted January 25, 2002 Did a little test on th ehighway today... While going to work I found that at 3500RPM my car in 3rd is doing right about 55mph. On the way home when there was less traffic I tried to figure out the top end of third to see where it would end up As I rolled into the gas in 3rd at about 50mph car started pulling merrily along, I was at about 3/4 throttle and the road was damp, at 4-4.5K the back end began to get squirrly and I nearly wet my pants ! I got to a faster part of traffic that was drier and at 65mph downshifted into third and VERY lightly rolled into it. 85mph is about 6500RPM and I could feel the car stating to pick up boost again so I let out of it. Even though I wasn't WOT the car felt a little weird and the turbos were whistling like a tea kettle! Kinda' scary when you're not sure you've got good traction... Let's imagine that dyno run in third starting at about 50mph - I'm thinking the acceleration on that dyno sheet in 3rd vs 4th would look a little different. HP might be down some as I don't think I'd be able to build boost quite as easily. If I get a chance on the dyno again anytime soon I promise to get a 3rd gear pull done to see how quickly it accelerates. Would make for a really neat comparison IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tim78zt Posted January 25, 2002 Share Posted January 25, 2002 BLK is exactly right, Oltmann, this is just for fun (and to pry into Azel's and Tony's and Jeromio's and Joe's and Sleeper's motives!!!) since we know these ZXT/Supra runs weren't even done on the same dyno ( actually none of the conditions were similiar since he is in Virginia and I'm in the Dallas/Fort Worth area of Texas). So that is why I was focusing on the shape of the graphs rather than specific numbers. I also emphasized that mine is a street car. If I were drag racing or even running "flying miles" I would be very tempted to use a Supra as my weapon of choice. But in the real(traffic-laden) world where my car lives insurance rates and traffic congestion rule, so I choose only 288 ft/lb at 12psi boost. (I still plan to get my graphs posted soon BTW.) So who is going to buy that $9K Z on ebay so we can get the rest of this story??!!! Tim78zt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tim78zt Posted January 25, 2002 Share Posted January 25, 2002 I'm ready to try the graph again!! Love the way this motor delivers power! Very smooth, not jittery, ramps up fast w/o wheelspin, lots of mid-range. Compare it with this one before the intercooler and 5 less pounds of boost. This why you should believe ScottieGNZ when he says don't scrimp on the IC. I'm running the same unit from Corky that he is BTW. This is my "stock" Z running the factory 7psi. Notice how it still has 50 more flywheel HP than a true stock factory car?!! The IC and 5psi more(now at 12psi) gets me another 50hp!!! Now where was that Supra hiding??!!!! Tim78zt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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