RB26powered74zcar Posted July 10, 2002 Share Posted July 10, 2002 Can anyone line me up on a good WB to help me out with tunning my Tec2 ( BLKMGK ) what do you use ? Thanks J. Soileau Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted July 10, 2002 Share Posted July 10, 2002 I have interest here too- for tuning my SDS in the near future, unfortunately I don't have much info to share here. However, I found a real fine site for a DIY unit.. and whaddya know, its australian DIY-WB Crazy amount of into to go through! Looks like what you have to buy is the pcb board: - $~20US the bunch of relays and whatnot.. $20 AFR display- $40 '95 1.5l Civic VTEC o2- $65 thru napa Hmm.. roughly 150 bucks. not bad! Now I'm no electrical genius or even amatuer for that matter, so I don't know if I want to try and take on this monster. Maybe somebody else could with some MAD wiring skillz and learn some of us how to do it. Well that's about it.. -980mak Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted July 10, 2002 Share Posted July 10, 2002 Oops.. just found this premade unit For the total, including a $16 pc/serial uplink is.. $373, pretty darn affordable still for WB. However it says they are still sorting through orders as of 5/22, I'll shoot them an email later and find out what's going on there. Cool stuff I was thinking making a fiberglass housing only displaying the LED, not all the decals, for simplicity. -980mak Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Owen Posted July 10, 2002 Share Posted July 10, 2002 What's the difference between these DIY models and something like the Halmeter (which is the only acceptable aftermarket unit out there I hear)? I don;t have the skills or patience to build one of these DIY things, and $373 is kinda steep for the complete kit. Unless, it reads two O2s and displays them separately, etc. Owen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLKMGK Posted July 11, 2002 Share Posted July 11, 2002 I use an FJO unit - cost complete with display was $660 and that was a DEAL. The DIY kits I wouldn't touch except assembled unless you really want to delve into electronics. I turned my kits, both of them, over to a friend who's an electronics wiz - he's still not finished them Seems the instructions were less than wonderful, the PCB silkscreen has errors on it, and in the end you still have to make a box with a good heatsink as the power transistor on this sucker heats up pretty good I'm told. Also, I bought some of what were apparently early units and they required 13+ volts to even turn on and heat up the O2 sensor. Hell, my Supra doesn't get much over 13volts normally when any accessories are running, this sucker wouldn't work well for me The new kits supposedly use a different voltage regulator... In the end I went FJO just to get a buletproof weatherproof assembled unit. Since it's protecting an expensive engine and I was getting dealer cost I felt it was worth it. HalMeter, Greddy A/F guage, junk from Jegs, Autometer "A/F" guage... junk! ALL of those read a normal OEM narrowband sensor. Why narrowband? Because it's most sensitive in the Stoich range - 14.7:1. On either side of that, rich or lean, it's ability to accurately read fuel mixture falls off a cliff! Goto the FJO WEB site and look at their sensor's response - it's MUCH better. Infact the sensor they use is the SAME NTK sensor that DynoJet and Motec use (shh!). That sensor is also used in LEV Hondas which is why it's price has dropped so much - it's now "only" $180 from FJO or $120 online from a place the DIY guys reccomend. In short - there's NO comparison, this sensor is as accurate as anything you'll find. The reason why the FJO and other controllers cost so much is because this isn't a "normal" O2 sensor - in order to be used it's heater circuit must be strictly controlled. The output must also be conditioned and amplified. Those two requirements drive costs up which is why the DIY guys built their setup and even at their cost it's a few bux. Sure wish FJO hadn't potted their box If I had a few bux I'd remove that potting and try to duplicate their unit but.... 'Zat help explain the differences in the various units? NTK makes a heater control box too BTW but I don't know if a display is available - the DIY display could be made to work. The display is really cool - realtime on the fly A/F info that will save your butt on a hard pull if you start to go lean. Worth it in my book and having an ECU that can use that information REALLY makes it worthwhile. Can the SDS use a W/B? I know that Holley, FAST, DFI, Motec, and HalTec can but I'm not sure who else. They charge a bunch for their "W/B upgrades" too. Close to $1K in some cases and it's the SAME NTK sensor with a heater box Lemme' know if you guys have any more questions. Sort of become a hot button topic for me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
speeder Posted July 11, 2002 Share Posted July 11, 2002 I have just aquired an FJO WB O2 meter with datalogging capability - I have rigged a 3-bar MAP sensor to the Aux input and can log AFR, RPM, and Manifold pressure simultaneously to my laptop for later playback and printout. Awesome tuning tool. I was using this to tweek in my L28 Turbo with Electromotive when I ran into car problems I have to fix before continuing. Drives me crazy. I'll see if I can post some pictures of some of my graphs - Will keep you guys posted on progress. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scottie-GNZ Posted July 11, 2002 Share Posted July 11, 2002 Can the SDS use a W/B? the best answer will come from the SDS vendor but since the SDS only uses the O2 if you choose to tune in the closed loop mode, it really would be 2 seperate devices. I wish I could get a straight answer, not guesses, on the life of a WB O2 sensor when used with racing fuel with a very high lead content. It would get very expensive if I had to change those puppies out often. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
z-ya Posted July 11, 2002 Share Posted July 11, 2002 Doesn't the SDS log O2 readings that are at or near a map point? What about the TecIII? My Wolf3D logs O2 readings when engine conditions get close to a or lands right on a map point. The closer to the map point the better. It has an indicator that tells you how close to the map point the reading is. After a long drive I go through all the logged O2 readings, determine if they are close enough to modify a map point, and then make a slight change in the injector millisecond setting for that map point. Do this ten times, and you've got a great running engine. I've had my car on the dyno recently with a wideband O2 sensor, and the AFM vs RPM curve looked pretty flat. Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLKMGK Posted July 12, 2002 Share Posted July 12, 2002 How well the HondaNTK sensor holds up to lead has been of some debate. Some people claim that if it's "broken in" on unleaded that it lasts pretty good with leaded gas by some who've done it. TECIII can use a W/B. Dunno' about the others. I've looked briefly at the datalogging stuff from FJO but haven't needed it. Sounds like it's really working for you though, cool! Glad I'm not the only FJO advocate here Just wish it were cheaper dang it! Actually, I'd like to know more about the TECIII if anyone knows anything about it. It had so much lead up hype and so many delays I stopped paying attention to it. Electromotive is just up the street from me BTW and I'm told they've lost some of their best engineers so be careful Just curious, what does an SDS or Wolf ECU run? The AEM race unit isn't out yet but the PnP units are $1200. The race unit will be a bit more but seriously look at the features before you write it off as being too expensive. Can you say baby Motec? Also, look at the Greddy E-Manage. It's made to piggyback on OEM ECUs and could perhaps be good for a ZXT ECU? GN ECU maybe? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
z-ya Posted July 13, 2002 Share Posted July 13, 2002 I think the new Wolf3D v4.0 is around $1400, but it doesn't include coil packs. I'm running RX7 coil packs withmy Wolf 3D v3.0, and they work great. The version 4.0 unit has a lot more map points than mine. Also it has a built in boost controller and other cool stuff. Those Aussies know how to make EFI computers! Pete http://www.wolfems.com.au Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RB26powered74zcar Posted July 15, 2002 Author Share Posted July 15, 2002 This all sounds great, and what I'm looking for. RICK, have you been able to come up with those pics and or graphs yet?, I'd love to check them out.Also, how about lining me up with where you bought your set up..... THANKS ALL Joel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
speeder Posted July 17, 2002 Share Posted July 17, 2002 I'll post some of my graphs as soon as I get time to figure out how to export them from my laptop. Still recovering from an extended visit to the In - Laws' last week. I bought my FJO setup used here locally - I can't recommend a source. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLKMGK Posted July 19, 2002 Share Posted July 19, 2002 No datalogging but for those of you looking for a W/B -> http://www.supraforums.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=521489&t=5617#post521489 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RB26powered74zcar Posted July 20, 2002 Author Share Posted July 20, 2002 Did I read the other guys response right, that it's the FYI unit being resold? I'm still debating the FJO purchase, it seems to be the better one... thankz joel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
speeder Posted July 22, 2002 Share Posted July 22, 2002 Okay, I finally sat down and exported an FJO Datalog graph to my webspace. Check this out: The black trace is RPM, blue is manifold pressure, and red is AFR. Don't try to critically analyse this data because it was made during my first run with 52lb injectors, a too-small wastegate that wouldn't hold boost at set-point, and "first -try" Electromotive fuel maps. But you can see how this could help with tuning. Shortly after this data was taken I had to send my turbo off for a rebuild/upgrade (probably damaged by compressor surge) and I'm dyin' here waiting for my new turbo/wastegate so I can get back to this toy I'll post some tweeked-in graphs when I get them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLKMGK Posted July 22, 2002 Share Posted July 22, 2002 Wait a sec, you've got an Electromotive ECU and are having to use the FJO to datalog?! Shouldn't the TEC software handle all that including the W/B input? If not I'd be REAL unhappy if I were you. Having to look at logs from multiple places would drive me batty... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RB26powered74zcar Posted July 22, 2002 Author Share Posted July 22, 2002 I spoke with a guy named Fred @ FJO and he told me that I could use the TPS voltage input spot in the Tec2, to datalog with the Tec2 and FJO WB unit, then compare the voltage #s to the sensors calib. chart? Since we don't have a 0-5V input in the Tec2, does this sound like it's feesable?? I don't know, it sounds kinda complicated for my simple mind...hehaw.. Wish I had the AEM setup??? arrgg.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLKMGK Posted July 23, 2002 Share Posted July 23, 2002 Umm, the TEC TPS, if it's a standard TPS, is 0-5volts. Most sensors are that range actually. What he said, using the FJO logging, sounds right to me. As for the AEM, no race unit yet and the learning curve on it is as steep as any other. This sucker is CAPABLE which means learning. You'll do fine with the TEC once it's all setup and you've learned it IMO. You already own it, might as well put it to good use Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
speeder Posted July 23, 2002 Share Posted July 23, 2002 The resolution and accuracy you get with a WB is worth the trouble of switching the laptop between ECU and O2 unit - the 3 measurements the FJO logs are all I need for serious tuning, especially for the initial setup of fuel maps. Substituting the WBO2 for the TPS input on my TEC2 isn't an option for me - I want to keep my TPS connected. I'm going to build a circuit to convert the analog voltage output of the FJO to be compatible with the TEC2's EGO input - Wintec2 has an EGO sensor calibration function but the sense of the input voltage swing must be inverted before using. FJO output goes 0-3.1V for rich - lean, while regular O2 goes 0-1V lean - rich.The Electromotive Tech Support guy said they were working on an outboard "inverter" circuit for this pupose but I havn't seen it yet. I was talking to a guy with a Buick GN who had a Fel-Pro ECU installed - it uses the NTK WB sensor and looks really capable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R0N Posted August 7, 2002 Share Posted August 7, 2002 Originally posted by BLKMGK:No datalogging but for those of you looking for a W/B -> http://www.supraforums.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=521489&t=5617#post521489 FYI: I called direct engineering to find out what brand they are using and it's the same one as the DIY kits as the one 980Mak is talking about. The only difference is they put it together for you. $245 without the LCD; + $85 for LCD. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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