Converting From Muncie to T5...What can I still use?

[Guest TBroZ]

Got the 240Z with a Scarab mounted 327 in it. The car is currently set up for a Muncie 4 speed. At the moment, it only has the shell of a Saginaw trans in it (to hold up the motor).

 

I need to know what I still need to buy, and what I can use from the Muncie set-up. I've got the World Class T5 already, a new Centerforce II clutch, and the Camaro bellhousing is on the way.

 

My question is, will I be able to use the flywheel, throwout bearing, pressure plate (etc.?) that's in it now? I've done some searches, and have found these things talked about...otherwise I wouldn't even know they exist. I'm very inexperienced to manual trans/clutch workings.

 

What is the pressure plate? Is it part of the clutch...i.e. is it included as part of the Centerforce clutch I bought from Jegs?

[Guest TBroZ]

Uhhh...I just learned that the pressure plate is another word for the clutch. Okay, so I've got a Centerforce II clutch. Can I use the flywheel and throwout bearing from the existing set-up?

 

I'm guessing that I'll need a slave cylinder made for a Camaro T5.

 

Thanks,

 

TK

[Guest greimann]

Lets review terminology first. A clutch is made up of two basic components: a pressure plate (the thing with spring fingers that bolts to the flywheel) and a clutch disk (the thing with friction material on it). If you buy a "clutch" you get these two items.

 

A stock T5 Camaro setup has a 153 tooth flywheel, 10.4" clutch and a 28 tooth spline on the input shaft. All of those items are not the same as an old muncie setup which has a 168 tooth flywheel, 11" clutch and 10? teeth on the input shaft. In other words, the muncie stuff will not interchange including the flywheel.

 

If you are obtaining a Camaro bellhousing, you will need a Camaro slave as well, but be aware that in stock form the slave and master cylinder are manufacturered as one unit, plumbed together without fittings. It is crazy, but that is what they did. There is info on how to tap the slave for a fitting and the size of master you will need. I don't know off hand. You might consider a hydraulic throw out bearing instead which does away with the slave and throw out arm.

 

Also don't forget to get a new pilot bearing too. It is the little bearing that is pressed into the center of the flywheel.

[Miles]

I started off with the about the same setup as you have. The SBC was in the Scarab position with a four speed Saginaw trans. I replaced the Saginaw with a 89 WC T5 trans and Camaro bellhousing. I used the original flywheel after having it resurfaced, a stock 89 Camaro clutch pressure plate/disk/TO bearing, a stock Camaro slave cylinder and a starter from a 89 Firebird. For the clutch master cylinder, I used a Ford F150 master cylinder (7/8 in. bore). I had to enlarge the the hole in the fire wall for the Ford slave cylinder, but it bolted in with some refitting of the linkage using a clevis pin instead of the fork. It turns out that both the Camaro slave cylinder and the Ford F150 master cylinder use identical roll pin hose connectors. So I used a Ford F150 plastic hydraulic clutch hose which has roll pin connectors at each end to connect the two units. This eliminated having to modify the connection at the slave cylinder per JTR. I bought the slave unit from NAPA, the hose from the local Ford dealership and the Ford F150 clutch master cylinder from Southern Autoparts. If you choose to use a Tilton master cylinder you will have to modify the the Camaro slave unit where it connects to the hose per JTR or you could have a shop make up a -3 line with the correct roll pin connector for the Camaro slave cylinder and fitting for the Tilton. Click on my website below and you can see the Camaro slave cylinder setup.

 

Miles

[Dan Juday]

I have the f-body T5 as well. I used the 7/8" Tilton master unit and did the modifications. I haven't had any problems with it, after I discovered the 3/4" was too small. However I think Miles has the hot ticket. Maybe a little more work to make the Ford master fit, but after that it all snaps together. Be aware that you will need to do a little "clearancing" on the floor/tunnel for the f-body clutch fork/slave to fit without hitting. Once you do this it is a good idea to trim off about an inch from the bottom of the gas pedal so it doesn't snag on the carpet at WOT.

 

Here is a shot of the tilton unit. That's the first one, the 3/4". The 7/8" looks the same only slightly fatter.

 

 

[DavyZ]

If you can't find a 153 tooth flywheel, you can buy one from http://www.northernautoparts.com/ProductDetail.cfm?ProductId=1039 . Keep in mind they have stock replacement ones for less.

 

Davy

[Guest TBroZ]

I've posted a pic of the slave cylinder currently on the vehicular Z in my signature page. I have no idea what it's from, but it worked with the Muncie set up. I know it doesn't look that pretty, but can I connect it to a stock Camaro slave cylinder?

 

Hey Miles, regarding your MSA trans mount...is your motor/trans still in the Scarab position? I'm leaving my motor/trans in the Scarab position for now, and need to know if I can modify the trans mount that's in there, get a JTR, or use the MSA.

 

Thanks guys for all your help and tips.

 

Terry

 

P.S. What advantages does the hydraulic throwout bearing (HTB) have over a slave cylinder? I'm assuming that one routes the clutch fluid tube straight in through the slave cyl. hole and fit it to the HTB?

[Guest TBroZ]

I couldn't modify the image size, so I moved it to my webpage.

 

TK

[Guest greimann]

You are still going to need to verify what diameter your master is if you plan to use it. It should be cast into the body of the unit somewhere. Maybe an inspection mirrior and a flash light would help. Like Dan says, you will need a 7/8 master to go with a Camaro slave cylinder, but you can't just buy a new slave, they come as a master-slave unit. You might find one in a slavage yard.

 

A hydraulic throw out beaing helps out in non-standard transmission setups by eliminating some difficult to match parts. It replaces the throw out bearing, arm, pivot and slave cylinder. The hose does go right into the hole where the throw out arm used to be. They are very smooth to engage too, but a complete setup will cost a little over $300.

 

 

 

As for your picture, you shoud resample it in your photo editing software to something like 8" wide @72 dpi for posting.

[Guest TBroZ]

Thanks greimann. I like the throwout bearing set-up. What Master cylinder are you using with that?

 

I'm confused. You're stating that the Camaro slave and master cylinders come as one unit, with unseparatable connections (if I understand you). Miles says that the Camaro master and F150 slave have the same "roll pin hose connectors" and that he mated the Camaro slave with the F150 master. I'm assuming that he's referring to the fluid line connections, implying that they are separatable.

 

Jeese, I thought this was going to be easy...I guess putting in componets in cars that were never designed to go in a car takes a little ingenuity.

 

TK

[Miles]

Terry

 

With the MSA mounts the engine is lower and closer to the firewall than the Scarab position. You may want to reconsider leaving the engine in the Scarab position as it will place your T5 shifter closer to the heater/radio controls. My shifter is in the stock 240Z position using a T5 and MSA kit. Also, note Dan Juday's throttle hook up. I reconfigured my throttle linkage like Dan's after the cable kept braking due to poor alignment through the firewall. Works very smooth. Also, you can buy the Camaro slave cylinder separate from the master cylinder. If you want I can look up the P/N for the slave and other components. Send me an email for details, P/Ns etc. Note that the Ford MC is not a perfect fit through the firewall and will require enlarging the hole and redrilling the lower bolt hole.

 

You may want to consider getting rid of the clutch slave you now have as it may not match your Camaro set up and cause firewall flexing and, eventually, cause your firewall to crack. The Ford/Camaro set up I used is very smooth and does not stress the firewall. If you want more info on the Ford/Camaro setup look for posts by Lee Howard on the Forum as he did the original research on this by searching the back shelves of autoparts stores.

 

 

Miles

[Guest greimann]

The master for the hydraulic release bearing is 3/4" . You can get a kit with master and slave from here: http://www.pawinc.com/ . They don't don't have a great web site so you have to order the catalog. The only thing that the kit does not come with is the hose from the master to the slave, but you can get premade braided steel ones from Grainger for a reasonable price.

[Guest TBroZ]

I did it. I ordered the hydraulic throwout bearing kit from PAW...along with a 153 tooth 10.4" flywheel. Ouch though...$646 for everything.

 

Okay, so there's a Grainger in my town. Exactly what hose type (fittings) am I asking them for? I'd like to have it already before the other parts arrive...otherwise, I could probably figure it out. greimann, I see your pic there...are those the hoses? How come they're so short? Aren't they going straight to the master? Or is there a coupling fitting?

 

Thanks,

Terry

[DavyZ]

The master for the hydraulic release bearing is 3/4" . You can get a kit...

 

Hey Greimann, any chance that you would know the kit's part # ? That would be absolutely fab if you could post that.

 

Davy

[Guest 400 ci 280z]

TBroz,

 

this has nothing to do with your problem but are you selling your muncie ?

 

Chris

[QWKDTSN]

be aware that in stock form the slave and master cylinder are manufacturered as one unit, plumbed together without fittings. It is crazy, but that is what they did.

 

I think you are confusing the T-5 with the T56 setup... I bought a brand new slave from Kragen by itself.

 

Although it's somewhat moot now that the slave cylinder is out of the picture.

[Guest TBroZ]

Chris -

 

I would if I had one. I've mentioned that it's been set up for a Muncie, but I bought it with only a Saginaw (case only) in it. The owner pulled the Muncie and put the Saginaw case in just to hold the engine up.

 

TK

[Guest TBroZ]

Miles - I LOVE the idea of having the motor closer to the firewall, 'cept it's a pretty big job, considering he (the orig. owner) made custom (and funky!) headers/exhaust system that routes through the wheel well (check pics in sig.). If I move the motor back, I have to get new headers, exhaust, and repair or replace the wheel wells. The wheel wells are welded in, no?

 

If I keep this car, down the road I'll probably move the motor back, but considering it's my third car, I can't afford a major project. As if it isn't already!

 

Terry

[Guest greimann]

To answer the specifics about the PAW hydraulic release bearing kit, the hoses in my picture in my previous post are part of the kit. they just get the supply and bleed outside the bellhousing. You have to supply the hose from the master to the stub hose. They are male -4 AN (a.k.a. JIC) fittings supplied, so you will need a female/female - 4 hose assembly. I initially used Grainger part #4HM86, but checking just now, they show it to be a discontinued part number. Their #3F807 seems to be a functional substitute.

 

http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/wwg/homepage.jsp

 

The kit number for the PAW , Mcleod hydraulic release bearing is #14005. It comes with the bearing, hoses, fittings, and Tilton 3/4" master. You will also need to order the #1420 adjuster screw. The spacer sleeve is NOT required for a T5.

[Guest TBroZ]

greimann, you're being excellently helpful. I couldn't help but notice two lines on the hyd. throwout bearing pic. Do they both connect to the master cylinder? I'll need to know when I order with Grainger.

 

Thanks,

TK