Guest Tim78zt Posted February 17, 2003 Share Posted February 17, 2003 Hi Guys! I want to know what you think the rebuilder's responsibility is for not installing the oil filter check valve in a turbo block that came out of an auto-tranny car and was installed in a 5-spd car. The fitting for the oil cooler/filter that bolts to the block and incorporates a check valve was discarded at the time of the rebuild. So the auto-tranny block went into my 5-spd car without the ability to stop oil from draining out of the filter. Can the shop be held liable for the subsequent failure of the engine (it lasted about 23,000 miles)? Tim78zt My replacement motor is running well on 7psi for the time being and All Z Car has begun the teardown process on my broken motor. They pulled the head and #1 piston yesterday. We found pretty much what we expected. Wrong pistons (I bought flat-tops...dished pistons were installed) without any sign of ceramic coating on initial inspection. Broken ringland but no sign of cylinder scuffing. That's the good news. Still need to measure bore to see if I got what I paid for there. Pics to follow. Tim78zt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffp Posted February 17, 2003 Share Posted February 17, 2003 I would think that there would be some liability on the part of the engine builder, if not all liability. You were not responsible to ensure the engine was the correct configuration they were. There really was no way for you to determine there was a problem. They could say that you did not watch the gauge, but then they should have known there was a problem from the start since they built the engine. I am guessing they installed the engine and ran it to check it out? They also could say you ran the engine out of oil also if they wanted to be jerks. What I would do is talk to them about the problem, and your findings. See what they have to say, and if they dont want to take responsibility fortheir error, then take them to court if they want to play hard ball. I am thinking you will have a very good case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tim78zt Posted February 18, 2003 Share Posted February 18, 2003 Jeff, I think the issue was oil starvation at startup resulting in a much shorter lifespan. The rings were damaged, and this is not the first thing I would think you would find damaged if the filter was empty every time I started the car. I am looking forward to the teardown to see what kind of wear/damage we are talking about. Thanks for the encouragement!! Tim78zt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jt240z Posted February 19, 2003 Share Posted February 19, 2003 I believe that it is not a check valve, it's a filter bypass valve. The purpose is to allow oil to return to the engine even if the filter is clogged. With this removed, i think that almost no oil would pass through the filter. Instead the unfiltered oil would simply return to the engine. This would not starve the engine for oil, but would allow dirty oil and any particulate to go straight to the mains. If the engine builder assembled the engine, installed the engine and attached the oil filter, then they should be responsible. If you attached the oil filter when installing the engine, then there may be responsibility on both ends. I would talk to them and see what they could do about a new rebuild. If it is their fault then they should pay. If it is a shared responsibility then see if they would do it at cost. Sorry to here about this. I feel your pain. Good luck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fl327 Posted February 19, 2003 Share Posted February 19, 2003 i think they are responsible 100% for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jt240z Posted February 19, 2003 Share Posted February 19, 2003 My point is only that if the engine was rebuilt and later installed by another person, then the builder did not know if the oil cooler adapter would be installed with it or not. If the builder did the installation, then he is responsible. If he did not return the adapter after the rebuild, then that may be grounds for some debate also. I used an auto trany block in my rebuild. The machine shop did not install the bypass valve after the rebuild, but I did use the cooler adapter in my car. The result was... no problems. If the engine builder decided to install the bypass valve, then I may have had trouble, without removing it first. Who would then be responsible? I still believe that the person doing the engine install, should know that they need to install the bypass valve or not depending on wether they use the cooler adapter or not. If the problem was part of the internals installation like upside down bearing halves, incorrectly installed rings or something like that, then it would be clearly the builders fault. This is just one of those gray areas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tim78zt Posted February 19, 2003 Share Posted February 19, 2003 you guys bring up some good points. I need to give more detail about the install: The builder did everything including teardown of a complete core motor (with the oil cooler adapter fitted), rebuild with heavy mods, installing the engine, startup, and tuning the DFI on their dyno. So how should I approach the shop with this information? It sounds like deleting the check valve has or will have some serious consequences. I'm sure it was out of neglect (not the first time for this shop) and inexperience on the part of the guy actually doing the work. Thanks and keep the ideas coming!! Tim78zt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clint78z Posted February 19, 2003 Share Posted February 19, 2003 Likely the filter bypass had nothing to do with the engine failure. How it works is engine oil comes into the filter thorugh the medium back to the oiling system. The bypass has no function unless you do not change your filter and it becomes blocked, this ball and spring bypasses the filter, and makes sure you engine has sufficent oil eventhough it is not filtered. SO UNLESS YOU DIDN'T CHANGE YOU FILTER OFTEN ENOUGH, THE BYPASS HAS NO EFFECT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jt240z Posted February 19, 2003 Share Posted February 19, 2003 Do you know what actually failed on the engine? What were the symptoms? How much power where you running? What kind of Mods. did you have in it? What kind of warranty did they give for the engine? How fast were the telephone poles going past when it failed? Sorry, I couldn't resist Sounds to me like you bought a turn key engine swap. If this is the case, then I do think that the shop should bear at least some if not all of the blame. I say some, only because any engine can be destroyed with the right amount of abuse. You did say that you put 25,000 miles on the engine before it had problems. Many shops (not ones I would go to) don't warranty heavily modified engines at all. Others may only offer a parts and workmanship warranty. This does look like a case of defective workmanship. I hope that most of the engine is salvageable. Still sorry to here about your problems, but I would like to hear what kind of modifications you had in it. Do you feel comfortable about posting the name of the shop? Others here may have had similar experiences with the same place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tim78zt Posted February 19, 2003 Share Posted February 19, 2003 Hi JT! I hope I can fill in most of the details you are asking about but they don't seem to have much to do with the engine failure... The rings on #1 and #2 are bad. This is detailed back in the archives of this forum. Symptoms are blowby thru the valve cover vent and loss of power and boost. Power was low (235whp) but boost was high (14psi at the time). My mods are extensive and are also documented throughout this forum's archives. Nothing on or in my motor is stock. The shop warrantied several problems over the period of the first year. Seemed very fair to me. However this problem came up only a month after they tuned my DFI for the new IC install. The consensus was it detonated (also documented in the forum). Actually you won't believe this but it blew in a parking lot (but it WAS a big parking lot!!) I know that many people are familiar with Alamo Autosport and those who have known me for a while know that is who built my engine. All the troubles I have had with the shop have been documented as well. They are well-known through their magazine coverage. I won't go back there however. Tim78zt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jt240z Posted February 19, 2003 Share Posted February 19, 2003 Thanks for the reminder on which engine we're talking about. I do recall several posts on this. It does seem that the problem was more tuning related then the missing bypass valve. It also seems that they should be totally liable for the problems you've faced most recently. Detonation, is almost always traceable to either fuel shortage or ignition timing. Right now I'm running 14PSI inter cooled with absolutely no sign of detonation on pump gas. I've pushed the boost to 18psi and still no troubles. That's in spite of me doing my own engine design and assembly. The tuner, in my case, really knew what he was doing and I put my trust in him. I'd go after them for what ever you can get. You have the evidence to show that detonation was the cause. After you settle with them, get your tuning done elsewhere. Good luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jwink25 Posted February 20, 2003 Share Posted February 20, 2003 I had some questions about this. "Hi Guys! I want to know what you think the rebuilder's responsibility is for not installing the oil filter check valve in a turbo block that came out of an auto-tranny car and was installed in a 5-spd car. The fitting for the oil cooler/filter that bolts to the block and incorporates a check valve was discarded at the time of the rebuild. So the auto-tranny block went into my 5-spd car without the ability to stop oil from draining out of the filter. Can the shop be held liable for the subsequent failure of the engine (it lasted about 23,000 miles)?" I have a turbo block out of a automatic car as well. If I replace the oilfilter adapter that bolts into the block with a aftermarket oilcooler adapter, will I be ok? I removed the factory oilfilter adapter because the oil lines were cut instead of removed. So, I was thinking of running an aftermarket oilcooler. Will I have any problems with oil draining out of the filter? Or, was this never really the problem at all? I am still new to Nissan engines...I just don't want to make simple mistake. Thanks Jason Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tim78zt Posted February 20, 2003 Share Posted February 20, 2003 Hi Jason! Just read back up in the thread a ways for Clint's reply and you will have your answer. It is a bypass rather than a check valve. I'll bet that your aftermarket adapter might have a bypass valve in it too. I know what you mean about the simple stuff...that's what ends up biting you!! Good luck with your project and don't forget to upgrade the brakes and suspension. You're going to need 'em!! Tim78zt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tom Scala Posted February 20, 2003 Share Posted February 20, 2003 I agree with Clint that the removing the bypass has no effect on engine wear if the filter is clean. Most hi-po shops remove it as a matter of course when building a performance motor no matter the make or model since it can malfunction and send unfiltered oil through the passages. Most oil filters have an anti-drainback valve in them anyway that will not allow all of the oil to drain out of the filter. A dry startup condition would most likely wipe out the rod and or main bearings first as well as the cam. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jwink25 Posted February 20, 2003 Share Posted February 20, 2003 Hi guys, yeah I read all the posts...I just wanted to make sure. It kinda made me worry a bit. I started this turbo swap in hopes that it would be cheaper than the V8 swap I was planning. I am unfamilar with these engines. I am worried that I might make a simple mistake that could cost me my engine and lots of $$$. I have been reading tons of posts in the Turbo forum. My brain is kinda like.. This turbo swap is not working out to be really any cheaper...course I hadn't planned on the upgraded turbo and tearing down the engine to do some performance mods to it. But, I think it will be a great learing experince for me. Plus It will be great seeing the look on all the Mustangs guys faces when they get their butts kicked by a in-line 6. Muahhhh hahahahaha! Thanks, Jason Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasonfen Posted February 20, 2003 Share Posted February 20, 2003 Hi there Tim. Sorry you are still having to deal with all this. Don't feel lonely. I'm still suffering the consequences of dealing with Alamo. Just about everything they put on my car failed. A few weeks ago the turbo bit the bullet. I'm sure it got washed by the bad head work they did before. It started blowing smoke out the back. Greg looked at it and verified the culprit. I've got a new one on the way and hope to be back on the road soon. I think your issue is a no brainer. They knew what you wanted and should have made sure it was all there. When my engine blew after less than a week, they did not want to take any blame. We eventually decided on a reduced price. Knowing what I know now about my DFI, I should have stood my ground. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tim78zt Posted February 20, 2003 Share Posted February 20, 2003 Jasonfen, tell me what you know now about DFI that I too should know!! Jason,soon you will be forgetting about Fords and won't be satisfied with anything less than Porsches and Corvettes. I love the look on the Porsche Turbo and Supra guys faces when I just hang with them (you can with 9psi boost on the street) as I did before my motor went South. That's what a lot of guys with street cars chasing big HP numbers won't tell you...you don't have that many places you can take 350HP and stretch it out. You run out of room (or into a cop) in a hurry if that turbo doesn't spool up really fast. Ask them if they know how fast they are going (on the street) when they reach 350WHP. The only places that kind of power will ever be seen is a dragstrip (maybe) and strapped to a dyno. Tim78zt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clint78z Posted February 20, 2003 Share Posted February 20, 2003 Not to side with Alamo or Tim78zt here just wanted put down a few facts about what is going on here. This is an engine that has been built with double the stock boost. This engine can take that even more, however if something is a bit off it usually ends with blown pistons which is a definate risk the owner must take. Mabey there tuning isn't so great, or mabey something else failed on the car it's hard to tell. At least they have made the effort to take some responsibilty for it which is probably more than half the shops would do. The only work that I know I am confident in what I am getting, is my own Hope you have more luck with the new engine, keep us posted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasonfen Posted February 20, 2003 Share Posted February 20, 2003 Tim, what I meant was knowing now that they installed a faulty DFI unit, I would have not given in. It amazes me how similar our stories are. They put in the first DFI and had it wired wrong. It died before the engine even cranked. Then they put in the second and the motor blew in less than a week with 14lbs of boost. Then the next engine running at only 7lbs blew in under 10,000 miles. That was when I found out the DFI was not reading the sensors correctly. It read 10lbs as 5lbs. The same with temps and throttle. The DFI is great if it is installed correctly and is working. Once I get the turbo sorted out, I'm sure it will last me a while. I did not have all the engine work you had done though. I'm have to say I'm glad I did not. When I add up all the money I spent, I could have built 2 V8 Zs. Live and learn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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