Guest Thurem Posted June 12, 2002 Share Posted June 12, 2002 Just read Car and Driver, where this guy put a V10 into a crown Vic, and runs it on propane. In the article it says that propane has an octane rating of a 104. Now this begs the question, why not use propane in a turbo motor? Its cheap, maybe some of the treehuggers will help finance the build, high octane-high boost-horsepower. Could this be done on a 350 motor? Or a Geo Metro? What would it take to build? Grumpy do you know anything about propane power? Thanks Thure Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Aaron Posted June 12, 2002 Share Posted June 12, 2002 As an added benefit, I beleive propane is smog exempt in all 50 states. No cats, no smog equipment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted June 12, 2002 Share Posted June 12, 2002 Check with your local propane distributor, they'll know someone to get in contact with. On that octane to get the power out of the engine, I'm almost positive that you need to increase the compression to get back the heat energy loss from going to propane (it has less heat energy per unit than gasoline). There was a company (still might be) called Impco ( http://www.impco.ws/ ) I think it was that used to have conversion kits to run either propane or gas in an emergency (can't find propane for example). As a side note, theres a few drag racing teams running propane with great results, oil dilution in the oil is eliminated greatly reducing engine wear. Some of these teams are reporting from what I've read a full season with only minimal wear on the engine parts. Ak Miller did a few turbo/propane installations and it worked great from what I've read. With that octane, a person could run some serious boost, I'd also imagine the intake charge would be cooled with the propane gas making it even that much better. Thats a opinion anyway. Hope that helps a bit. Regards, Lone Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bang847 Posted June 12, 2002 Share Posted June 12, 2002 if your going that route why not go the methane route? i believe you will get smog exemption and also you get natural gas rebates! i think in that setup the most costly part is the gas tank.. ( could cost more than your block and turbos) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest LIghtningZ Posted June 12, 2002 Share Posted June 12, 2002 No gas tank bang just a pressurized cylinder. you could also call any local forklift dealers for thire feedback. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Perry Posted June 12, 2002 Share Posted June 12, 2002 I have been tempted to do this for a while too. I grew up in a family business with forklifts and zambonys that ran propane, also the airconditioners on our buildings were natural gas powered small block chevys. When we tore down the jeep based zambony after 25 years of constant use it was perfectly clean inside, no carbon. you have to run ashless engine oil or it will ash the plugs. There is a major brand that is ashless, maybe havoline or valvoline? can't remember. the tanks are the most expensive part, the forklift style are not road legal. There are a few large companies that sell stuff made for road conversions, last I looked some of them even sold EFI setups for propane. For a simple setup it takes a tank, regulator, fuel heater (uses hot coolant from engine to make sure fuel is gaseous), and a mixer carb. They tend to be hard to start in really cold weather(no heat for the fuel heater), but other than that run great. The mixer/carb units can be bought without butterflies and installed on top of a carb kinda like an air cleaner, this type is designed for dual fuel where you keep the carb but shut off gasoline when using propane. There are tax breaks for propane or natural gas vehicles, and emissions are much better. When I first considered this propane was cheap but not all that available. now in my area there are propane filling stations for fleet vehicles(not sure if I could use them), but regular propane sources(u-haul etc) ask about $2/gallon, and you will get slightly worse mileage due to a bit less energy in propane. Plus the tanks can be heavy unless you can afford the fancy composite ones. some other things to consider: propane has no fuel seperation issues, and the carbs tend to be one barrel, so go ahead and use that big open racing intake on the street. also natural gas is about 122 octane, and uses the same carb/ heater setup, but takes more expensive tanks. I'll give it a shot someday, its too out of the ordinary to leave alone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim240z Posted June 12, 2002 Share Posted June 12, 2002 If you plan to use Natural Gas (Methane), check what %methane is available locally. CA ARB has some very strict rules on the minimum level of methane/ethane (there are inerts also like CO, CO2, N2 and some toxics like pentane). That will effect your emissions and performance (octane). There are some Natural Gas producers that have very sweet gas (high methane content 95%+) so get that if possible. BTW..I work for a Gas Utility. Tim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timh Posted June 12, 2002 Share Posted June 12, 2002 If you run a carburated engine on the propane/gasoline system make sure you run a tank of gasoline at least once a month. The carb seems to dry out/deteriorate when ran only on propane. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest the_dj Posted June 12, 2002 Share Posted June 12, 2002 122 OCTANE??? Can you say 14:1 compression and 30+ psi boost? Sound yummy! Sam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLKMGK Posted June 13, 2002 Share Posted June 13, 2002 Heh, guess what the Supra guys are playing with for additional octane? Yup, BBQ tanks in the hatch with propane. Actually, some of them use BIG NOS bottles I think. Anyway, it's possible to use it as supplemental fueling when you go big boost and just run gas around town... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Thurem Posted June 13, 2002 Share Posted June 13, 2002 BLKMGK So lets say you have a stock motor running gas Then you add a turbo, leave the injection alone, and have a supple-mental npg system to supply extra fuel based on boost and rpm. This sounds very clever, just don't run out of propane. Thure Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted June 13, 2002 Share Posted June 13, 2002 Originally posted by BLKMGK:Heh, guess what the Supra guys are playing with for additional octane? Yup, BBQ tanks in the hatch with propane. . Hell might as well douse yourself in gas too, man driving a car that fast with a BBQ tank in the car... I guess it'd work great, but man you could easily end up a charbroiler, but the funeral would be cheap I guess.. sorry morbid joke. Regards, Lone Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Drewz Posted June 13, 2002 Share Posted June 13, 2002 Propane is far safer than you think. Gas is far more flammable in any state. My former boss still holds the world record, I believe, for the fastest propane powered car. The power loss from gas to propane is a moot point as the new mixers are sweeter than ever. Also propane is higher than 104 octane by far which is why its aftermarket popularity is now catching on. It does run hotter than gas so 1 lower temp. rating on plugs should be used. Also the older motors without hardened seats in the heads need to be upgraded or the seats burn out easily. I was certified to inspect and install conversions a while back so it is easy to work with. Another note is that it is only highly combustible in a certain narrow margin propane to air. It is heavy as a gas and tends to seek out and settle on the nearest low ground if any major leak occurs. The tanks are not that expensive depending on shape and configuration you want. I can't see any smog laws in the world where internal combustion engines are still used that would come near the emissions from propane so go propane means racing clean!!! Also the ease of setting the mixture and idle is too easy. Any adult could easily pick up the info. to work on it responsibly. Another side effect is the lack of deposits in the oil and internals from use of this fuel. Gasoline engines get a lot of the deposit buildup from unburned fuel and impurities in the fuel itself. Propane does not live by that so oil stays cleaner far longer. A friends dad ran a chev wagon to the 800,000 kilometer mark on the original 350 with only a head job done before he sold the car. If you are going to look up the fastest recorded propane vehicle in the book my exbosses name is Glen Sali. As far as needing to run gas once in a while, it is a good idea so the fuel pump, lines and carb don't dry out, that is if you are running a "Dual Fuel" setup. Just a little info for you to chew on. My experiences and opinions......Any more questions I can help with just ask. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZROSSA Posted June 13, 2002 Share Posted June 13, 2002 Lpg and Cng are used a lot down under. Most of the taxis in aussie run on lpg and they get some huge miles from them. I have seen lpg used in couple of mags on Super/turbo charged cars where the standard compression ratio is used. Do a search on lpg and see what they come up with. Douglas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted June 13, 2002 Share Posted June 13, 2002 i like the idea but does it still smell nice like burning gas and rubber. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Thurem Posted June 13, 2002 Share Posted June 13, 2002 Adding question to my previous post. Stock type motor, stock fuelinjection. One of the ways to deal with increased fueldemand when boosting higher is to increase fuelpressure and "fool" the injection. Instead of that approach, add propane to the mix to deal with the increased fueldemand, and still leave the stock fuelinjection pumping gas. Now will the higher octane of propane keep the regular gas from detonating? This should be easily doable? Is components readily available? Could this be used for other applications? How about squirting NOS and propane at the same time, to avoid detonation? Could this be done by just adding two nozzles one with propane and one with NOS? What was it he said in the fast and the furios, better add two bottles... Thure Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Owen Posted June 13, 2002 Share Posted June 13, 2002 Free gas, huh Tim? Since I work at Honda I could get the NGV (natl gas vehicle) cheap AND drive in the carpool alone! Of course I didn't give it a second thought, this car makes 100hp at best! I'd rather drive my twin plate clutch-driven Z in bumper to bumper to traffic for over an hour each way everyday (whew). Hmmm, maybe I am a little crazy I doubt we could get tax deductions on propane Zs though...we'd probably have to get the the car officially certified won't we? Which I'm not even going to do because my block is older than the chassis. Maybe later... Owen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bang847 Posted June 13, 2002 Share Posted June 13, 2002 I believe there are a good number of CNG crown vics and Caprices out there... especially on the right coast... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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