NEWS UPDATE on smoking engine!! NOT the seals! (I think...)

[Guest bastaad525]

Drove the car to work last night, and brought a friend along to help out with removal of the valve seals. First thing I did was pull all the spark plugs... what I saw was not exactly what I expected:

 

#1 plug - looked a tad on the rich/sooty, but had NO oil on the ceramic or the ground hook, but some oil on the threads

#2 plug - same

#3 plug - same

#4 plug - same but with a small amount of oil on one side of the ceramic

#5 plug - DRENCHED in oil, the ceramic insulator, the ground, the electrode, everything, wet with oil

#6 plug - same as the #4 plug but a tad bit more oil on it

 

Again... not the results I expected to see... remember, when we first installed the head and let it run for a while and it was smoking so badly, we pulled all the plugs and they were all oily to about the same degree... so whatever that means.. I'm baffled

 

Well I decided since the #5 was the worst off, that I'd inspect the seals there first. Pulled off both the #5 intake and exhaust rockers, and looked at the seals. First thing I can see is that they are definately installed correctly. Try to push them down further by hand and nada. Try to pull them out by hand... nope... firmly snapped into place. Used a tool to pry them off. Well I must say that they do seem to fit TIGHT onto the valve stem... the valve moves very smoothly and freely thru it but it definately seems to be making good contact. So pulled them both off and inspected them. Definately brand new, and definately not damaged. I gave them a sort of little suction test to see if they would hold vacuum and they did. (HOWEVER... I did note that there was some oil inside of the area that the seal covers, around the top edge of the guide and such... which still leaves me thinking they are possibly the wrong size... but then I think... some oil in there has to be normal.) So... it doesn't make sense to be the seals... if the #5 cylinder is the worst off of the bunch, it stands to reason that this thourough of an inspection of the seals from that cylinder would reveal something. The valve stems themselves also look perfect and smooth, no damage, the valves moved very smoothly, they didn't feel at all rough sliding thru the guides, and there was NO side to side play of the valve in the guide. Again I DOUBT it could be the guides, even if the guides were damaged, brand new seals, if functioning properly, should keep the oil out, no? Well... not to cop out, but I will say, that getting these two off proved to be a pain in the dark at 1am, and after seeing that the seals definately seemed fine and were installed properly, and that it doesn't seem to be all 6 cylinders burning oil anymore (I am soooooooo baffled by this) we just called it quits right there and put everything back together. I would have taken them all off and replaced them (I most likely still will) if I could have found another set... but otherwise it just didn't seem to make sense to repeat the labor when the chances are slim to none that just taking them off would reveal anything and even if it did I'd not have been able to do anything about it anyways. So now I'm thinking 90% chance it is the rings, 5% chance it may still be the seals (possibly the wrong size still I guess) and 5% chance it is somehow the headgasket. Someone mentioned on my other thread that there are additional holes on a turbo head gasket as compared to a N/A gasket, that these holes are for added oil passages in the F54 block. Now, I ordered this gasket, and I put it on myself, and did pay close attention to it during install, but I admit, I could have overlooked something like that while it was putting it on. Either way, now it is definate that the head needs to come off. I'm going to drop the car off with my friend next friday... he'll pull the head, do some more inpection on it, inspect the gasket (just to see if that's what it was), and if need be, rebuild my block for me. I may still do a compression test in the meantime.... but unless I'm missing something it really seems now that it just has to be the rings. Any ways... part of me wants to rebuild the block anyways simply because hey... I already did the head... might as well just have the whole engine be fresh right? Leaves me a better platform from which to dabble in higher amounts of boost reliably and then I'll finally KNOW the shape of the engine, instead of just knowing what some guy TOLD me. So... I'm almost there guys... almost there.

 

If he rebuilds the block and the thing still smokes I'm drivin it off a muthafuffin cliff though mark my words.......

[Afshin]

let me summarize something:

9/9/03 I recommended you check compression twice

9/10 sleeperZ recommends you check compression

9/11 I recommend you check all spark plugs to see if oil is still on all of them

later 9/11 I tell you how to check compression by yourself and sleeperZ reminds to disconnetct injectors if cranking with the key

9/14 (35 posts later) you still did not do either, I get annoyed and said that you need to be more systematic in your approach

9/18 (56 posts later) I again recommed that you check all spark plugs to see if oil on all six and to check compression

9/20 (over 60 posts later) you finaly check the plugs and say that there is oil on two (when we had to assume all this time that it was on all six because you would not recheck), and maybe you will check compression

Well how can I (and trust me many others) not get annoyed when you put so many posts asking for advice, and then ignore so much of it. It took over 60 posts for you to confirm if oil is leaking into all six cylinders. This was a crucial data point, which is why I recommeded that you recheck it. It was very clear if all six cylinders had oil with a clean J pipe and normal compression that it was the seals, which is why I needed you to reconfirm that indeed oil was in all 6 cylinders. And it is nice to check compression to see if there are any surprise and evaluate the bottom end. you had checked compression before the oil leak, who the hell cares about before the oil leak.

Now I'm telling you again that it is important to confirm wether you have proper compression in all SIX cylinders or NOT.

Now tell me how important was it to recheck the plugs, how hard was it and why it took you so long to do it ?

BTW I'm not saying that whatever I say is correct or that my opinions are so valuable that you should listen to me, because it is clearly not so. What I'm saying is that you have the responsibility of providing accurate data points and confirming them when posting, specially when it is easy and cost you nothing (i.e. checking spark plugs and compression).. So when sleeperZ or I or any one asks for logical and accurate data points relevant to the problem such as compression or make sure that oil is leaking in all cylinders, you have the responsibility of providing that data if you wish to continue posting on the topic or you will be wasting our time. I'm annoyed that this post has been clicked/read 783 time, the whole time with all of us assuming that oil is leaking in all cylinders because who would not confirm such an important data point as I requested so many times and that you still resist checking the compression in an engine that burns oil.

[Jersey]

Afshin - did you have your coffee yet? j/k! haha. 525 - We just need as much accurate data as possible to offer any kind of semi-intelligent internet solutions to your problem, as Afshin "mentions"...(too easy to bust you Afshin ) Oil on a few of the plugs makes a big difference on where to focus the attention on toward your problem. If it didn't smoke before the head rebuild, i'm going to say one of two things- head gasket or rings. Sometimes the new compression from the top end overcomes a weak bottom end which is why your rings might be taking a dump. But, as Afshin and Sleeper mentioned, really try and do a compression check, it may tell the story. And i know your tight on money and places to work on the Z but, see if you can get a hold of one for 1/2 hour and do it. Good luck.

[Guest bastaad525]

Afshin - okay now *I* am getting annoyed. I ask questions here to get help and answers on this car... Yes I know you have recommended doing a compression check, and recommended I recheck the spark plugs. Lots of people have recommended lots of things... I try to do as many of them as I can when the opportunities present themselves. One thing you seem to be missing that I know I've mentioned more than once is that I dont have a lot of free time, and I CAN NOT work on my car at home. If the manager sees me working on the car in the parking lot I could be evicted. The parking situation on the street around my house is dubious to nonexistant. Not to mention with the weather being the way it has been in the valley (I live in Northridge, average temp in the 90's every day for weeks now) I admit I really dont want to be out on the street working on this thing. I really dont get a lot of opportunities to mess with this car, I think I've spent more time fiddling with this car at the local gas station parking lot than anywhere else. Hence why I always end up having to pay someone else to do even the smallest of work on it. And trust me, given my budget, that is REALLY a big deal. I simply have NOT HAD A CHANCE to do a compression test. I lead a busy life, I work 50+ hours a week, 3 days out of the week are graveyard shift, and have really been bouncing my schedule around as I've had to work my life around not having a driveable car and having to share my g/f's car, and hence, have to work around her schedule as well. I have not even slept a regular full nights sleep in probably about a month. The one time I had the time and place to do something such as a compression test would have been last night when I was messing with the valve seals at my job, when I had a helper handy... I admit it was an oversight on my part that I did not think to bring the tester with me, and I apologize for that. Another reason I haven't gotten around to doing it before, which you should have already deduced seeing as you have been reading my threads so thoroughly, is that I was chasing down an electrical problem that was either a bad alternator, battery, or starter (turned out to be the alternator) and that I couldn't even get the car to crank w/o getting a jumpstart. I just replaced the alternator yesterday before going to work. So doing a compression test before that point would really not have been easily feasible at all, seeing as you have to crank the motor several times to do it. And about the plugs... I agree I did not rush to pull them out, partially due to the above mentioned reasons, partially because I have not been driving the car so I didn't expect the condition of the spark plugs to change, and partially because I really had no reason to believe, after checking them TWICE in a two week period and both times seeing all six having oil on them... (Sorry for thinking that checking them twice was enough to 'confirm the accuracy of my data points' from now on I will check everything five times before even posting about it) I had no reason to believe or expect that that would change, but it did. Again, I'm sorry that I guessumed the wrong thing here (but I DID recheck them, if I did not do it fast enough for you, I am sorry). I have only one theory on how the plugs condition changed so much after the first two checks, which I'm sure wont be taken seriously. The "Engine Restorer" product that I dumped in the oil last week. Maybe it DOES work? Maybe it somehow helped the rings to reseal and that's why #1-2-3 are dry, #4 & 6 are mostly dry, as opposed to them all being oil fouled. And maybe the #5 rings are just too badly gone for the Restore to help? I know a lot of people I've talked to have said this stuff does work. Otherwise I can't understand how the cylinders 'dried up'. This ALSO is another reason (albeit a very small part of the why... more like just a little voice in the back of my head) why I didn't prioritize doing a compression test. I thought, after putting the Restore, which is a product that claims above all else, to 'bring compression on tired engines back up to near stock levels' that doing a compression test may not really show the REAL condition of the rings. Again... a small reason... but the thought had occured to me. Now my question to you, is how can you say I have ignored 'so much' of the given advice here? I have tried how many things that YOU guys have recommended to me? Some of which I'd never have thought of, hell, some of which made no sense to me at all even. So out of all those, TWO things get suggested, one which I DID do (so it took a couple days... oh I'm sorry we're measuring time in POSTS now) and one of which I didn't as of yet due to not being able to, and then one instance of forgetfullness... and suddenly I'm just 'ignoring so much' of everyones advice?

 

Now, this is two times you have gotten on my case for what I believe are not really reasonable things to be getting on my case about. The last time you did it you even admitted that you were jumping the gun.. but then you just do it again. I do not come here to be chewed out, and don't believe I've just been sitting here wasting peoples time as you imply. I appreciate all the advice and info that is given to me here, but dont have time nor patience for negative comments. If you want to be helpful, kewl, great, it's much appreciated (it is!). Otherwise, just don't post on my thread, m'kay? Because now you are wasting MY time.

 

And one other thing, you are overlooking the most important thing of all here. I posted this thread with one intention, to find out why my motor was suddenly smoking. Thru everyones suggestions and trial and error testing, I have now reached that point (okay so the 100% definate answer is not... well... definate, but it's been narrowed down greatly and is just one step away from finding out) so in that sense my thread, and the questions and replies thrown about in there, HAVE served their purpose 100%. If I had not had this resource to draw upon, I'd probably still be looking at the car and scratching my head and not knowing where to start, or would have just sold it. So how does it equate to a waste of time?

 

 

Jersey - yep... head gasket or rings. Head's coming off this thursdayish or by the weekend at the latest. I'm going to take it to a DIFFERENT machine shop and have them inspect it, and most likely replace the seals either way, unless they can assure me 100% that the seals are the right size. I will definately do a compression test before we take the head off, now that the alternator is fixed and I can (hopefully) crank the motor over to my hearts content. A couple people have suggested the same as you, that rebuilding the head increased the pressure in the cylinders just enough to push weak rings over the edge. Again.. the head was definately not in the best shape when we took it off the first time, I have no reason to believe the rings are either. Anyways, if the head comes back okay, and the gasket looks fine, then there is no doubt left as to what it is. I just hope we can get it all done and have it back on the road, smoke free, before the weekend is over.

[fl327]

Hey Afshin, that was a great race last night! Your car is putting power down thats for dang sure. Dale and Issac were buggin out that we were driving fast down that street, I guess police are around that street or something, but we had to show them how true San Francicans do it!!! YEAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That hybrid turbo is really showing its power on top end is what it seemed like. Keep it up. Nice seeing you too. Awesome car you got there, we need to intercool you now. 8)

 

Hey, happy to hear that its starting to clear up and you might not need a new engine B525. It does take a systemic mechanical approach to correctly diagnose and remedy symptoms like the issues you have been addressing regarding the L28et engine/induction swap into your car.

[Guest bastaad525]

I know dude and I am TRYING to be as systematic as possible, looking at all the possible things that can be the cause or even involved with the problems I've been having, and then trying things one by one to either confirm or eliminate those things and then to try to fix them when finally found. I may not go in the same order some people would suggest, but that's because so many people are suggesting so many things.... sometimes it's hard to decide what to try when I do have the time and place to try them.

 

In the end I'm kind of happier that it is ending up this way... the cost has been pretty well spread out over time, and though the whole situation has sucked, I will soon have a completely rebuilt turbo motor sitting in my 240 and will have a lot better idea as to where I stand with this car. Once this is done then that's it, all problems are pretty much solved, and I can get back to working on making it perform better and ENJOYING DRIVING the damn thing!