Jersey Posted September 24, 2003 Share Posted September 24, 2003 Out of the 3 T3's i watched at idle, none of them spun so i really wouldn't think they'd need oil. Now maybe they're all on their way out but who knows. And, judging by the amount of side to side play on this T3, i was 99% sure it was the problem and just wanted to confirm that other 1%, which it did. Does your T3 spin at idle? Maybe my T3 has some drag from being worn and abused a few times at 14psi which is why it doesn't spin @ idle either, even though it has no real play. She boosts fine though. hmmm...like moby said Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bastaad525 Posted September 25, 2003 Share Posted September 25, 2003 Jersey - I agree with afshin... I dont think I want to risk frying my T3 like that only to find out it's not the cause. I'll have to see if it spins at idle, but remember it only really smokes when I rev it... wont the turbo spin then? Anyways I thought running it with the J-pipe disconnected would serve the same purpose? I will say that the pattern of smoke you describe is almost identical to what mine does. Mine doesn't really smoke on cold start, sometimes a little will come out, I figure it's whatever is left build up in the cylinders, but rarely. After it warms up there may be a very tiny amount of faint smoke at idle, sometimes not though. If I rev it and hold it, no smoke, but when I let off a puff comes out. But if I let it idle for a few minutes and then rev it pooooooooooooooof a big cloud of smoke. I then have to hold the revs up for like 30 seconds for it to clear out. During normal driving it only ever smokes if I sit at a light for a while, it will puff when I leave the light, but I wont see any while I'm sitting there. And it lets out a puff of smoke whenever I get on it and it hits boost, but just a puff/cloud, not constant smoke even if I stay on it. Sounds mostly like your same symptoms... but again, I did run the car with the J-pipe disconnected and still got smoke... Maybe the damn thing is leaking on both intake and exhaust sides?? That would explain how it's fouling the plugs AND smokes if I disconnect the J-pipe. But at the same time, it still doesn't make sense to just start smoking right when I put the head back on. I also did check the 'propeller' shaft whatever it's called on the intake side, moved it around, no side to side play that I could tell. No play at all as far as I could tell! The turbo is supposedly newly rebuilt, according to the guy who sold me the engine (but then, so was the head... and that was definately a lie, but the turbo actually does seem like it is). I would also think like Afshin on this one, that if it were the turbo, shouldn't the smoke be constant at higher revs and on boost? Then again... if it were the rings I would expect that same thing... which goes back to suggesting valve seals! GAAAAAAAAAAH!!!! Then there's also the matter of the smoke I saw coming out of the valve cover breather... I dont think a leaky turbo seal would cause that. I'm so confuuuuuuuuused You know... I'm gonna get these new rings and bearings put in... and I just have this feeling it will still smoke... and then I'll replace the turbo... and then everything I got put in with this swap is going to be newly rebuilt... and I will be broke... but happy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bastaad525 Posted September 25, 2003 Share Posted September 25, 2003 w00000t TimZ emailed me today, the brown valve seals are in the mail! Awesome!! So those will go on the head while we have it off and I will rest a bit easier Thanks Tim!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jersey Posted September 25, 2003 Share Posted September 25, 2003 I would have suggested you pull the AFM to T3 boot off and see if it has excessive wobble to it, but it seems you did that already. Here's a safe way to tell if your T3 spins @ idle or not (what i did on the 3 i checked) if you wanted to - With the J-pipe off, you can get a glimpse of the compressor wheel. Start it with the J-pipe off as you did and take a look down the compressor neck to see if the wheel spins or, pull the AFM to T3 boot off and watch it there. It would still be oiled that way and if you find it doesn't spin, i wouldn't think you'd need oil fed to it. And like i've mentioned somewhere in the replies, his didn't smoke on cold start either, just after it was warmed up a bit, just how you descibed. And he did have smoke out of his valve cover as well and couldn't tell that much smoke when under accelleration...why? i have no idea but that's the way it acted. Also, same scenerio as you say - If I rev it and hold it, no smoke, but when I let off a puff comes out. But if I let it idle for a few minutes and then rev it pooooooooooooooof a big cloud of smoke. I then have to hold the revs up for like 30 seconds for it to clear out. During normal driving it only ever smokes if I sit at a light for a while, it will puff when I leave the light, but I wont see any while I'm sitting there. And it lets out a puff of smoke whenever I get on it and it hits boost, but just a puff/cloud, not constant smoke even if I stay on it I wouldn't have run his T3 without the oil feed without first feeling how much side to side play he had, and i was sure it was wasted. It was just a suggestion but it sounds like you've ruled out the rebuilt T3 so, follow your path and good luck. Hope you find the problem and find happiness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bastaad525 Posted September 25, 2003 Share Posted September 25, 2003 Jersey... I say something wrong? I haven't 'ruled out the rebuilt T3' quite the contrary... I dont really believe the thing was rebuilt... I already know the guy that sold the motor to me is a straight up liar. I haven't ruled out anything yet... I HAD ruled out the turbo after running the car w/o the j-pipe, but now after you've described the smoke pattern of your cousins car... and still taking into account the mystery of how all six cylinders will suddenly start smoking, when the valve seals have proven to be good and installed correctly, and then a compression test shows good even compression on all cylinders... the turbo is now back to my #1 suspect. So I'm gonna try your test today... I'll warm the car up til it starts smoking, then I'll take off the metal block that the oil feed line and oil pressure sender attach too and just screw the oil pressure sender directly into the block to block it off, and run the car that way and see if it smokes. Buying the rings and bearings have been put on hold for now... was gonna get them today but I"ll try this test first. Eerie how we keep having such similiar problems.... Jersey I have a question, if I disconnect the turbo oil feed in this manner (from the block side instead of from the turbo) there will still be oil in the feed line right? How long did you run the car with the feed disconnected to 'clear out' what oil was left in there? Or did it just stop smoking as soon as you disconnected it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jersey Posted September 25, 2003 Share Posted September 25, 2003 Nothing said wrong 525. If i came off wrong, didn't mean to. If you're going to try to disconnect the oil feed line, i would pull off the J-pipe first or teh AFM/T3 boot, start it and watch the compressor at idle to make YOURS doesn't spin. Mine, a friend's and my cousins did not. But, they all could be worn a little and have a little drag on them. Just wouldn't want you to cause more problems on my account. If it doesn't spin and you disconnect the feed from the passenger side, you can do it the way you suggested or just unscrew the T3 feed right out of the L adapter (you'll see what i mean when you look at it) You will have to plug this because there'll be a bit of oil pressure behind it and it gets hot quick. The oil left in the line wont get pushed because you already disconnected it from the block (feed side) and i dont thing the bearing will pull the oil. It smoked for a few seconds when first started (assuming from the oil laying on seal after we shut it down or possibly from the oil still in the line as you suggested) then it just stopped. Just to re-test, hooked the feed back up and it started smoking again. And yes, i did bring up the r's a couple of times just a little bit just to see if it would smoke with the feed disconnected - no smoke. Connected - smoked within a minute or so. Like i said, i was 99% sure his was gone considering the amount of side to side play there was on the compressor wheel. Please don't kill your T3 by doing this or i'll be written off of HybridZ Then i'll have to sell my Z haha. Good luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jkube Posted September 26, 2003 Share Posted September 26, 2003 I've read through the posts about your problem, and I wonder since you are getting oil in all of the cylinders that it would be real wierd for all 6 seals or rings to be bad at once. And there is no "Passage" through all the cylinders where if one cylinder is bad that it would contaminate all the other cylinders. My thought is there must be another "Common" entry point for the oil. How about the vent tube from the crankcase. Doesnt it feed into the intake plenum? Are you able to check the inside of the manifold for oil contamination? If you find oil in there then you might have one cylinder with blowby (pressurizing the crank case and blowing oil into the intake)or (more hopefully) a plugged PCV valve. I had a 85 mustang that blew an oil ring and the oil was litterly pouring out the valve cover vent and into the intake breather. I couldnt keep the plugs from fouling. On an 85 Capri Turbo I had it blew the graphite seal on the turbo exhaust side and there was a huge cloud of blue oil smoke coming out the tail pipe, but only when the turbo spooled up. I removed the turbo rerouted the exhaust and the motor ran fine ( but much slower) Just some thing other things to ponder before you strip the motor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rags Posted September 26, 2003 Share Posted September 26, 2003 Hey guy's, why can't you just grab the compressor wheel to keep it from spinning when the oil feed line is disconnected? I don't think this will hurt anything. Joe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bastaad525 Posted September 26, 2003 Share Posted September 26, 2003 Rags - good idea that's what I did Jersey - no dice bro... disconnected the oil feed and kept the turbo from spinning as rags suggested. Even after letting it idle like that for about 5 mins, the engine was still smoking... no more no less. So now I'm 100% convinced it's not the turbo. Ah well.. it was easy to try and it was free Well, now... the wait begins... yet AGAIN!!! I'm once again without my Z Just got home from dropping the car off, ordered the rings and bearings which should be in tommorow. The guy should have the head off tommorow and then I'll know more... alltogether it will probably be about a week before I get my car back. I really hate being w/o my car.... *sigh* ah well. He's most likely going to replace the TPS for me for free, too, just in case that's the cause of the other problem I was having. Now the car is running pretty rich too... another 'out of the blue' problem... before I had the head rebuilt the car ran perfect, nice tan spark plugs... now they just keep getting more and more black, and the exhaust smell is stronger and stronger... well I HOPE that this is in some way related to the oil that's being burned and that the car isn't actually running that rich. I dunno but I do know that I want to put that megasquirt in as soon as I have the $$$ after this is done. Well thanks again guys for all the tips and advice now I wait......... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jersey Posted September 26, 2003 Share Posted September 26, 2003 Is a good idea Joe, i just didn't think it would spin at idle. Yours did 525? At around 750rpm? If so, i really need to buckle down and save some $ for the hybrid because my T3 does not spin down that low. If it's dragging, i'm gonna have trouble soon i guess. Glad to hear it wasn't the T. Sorry you wasted more time on my suggestion, just seemed like the same symptoms as cousins Z and figured, like you said, free and not too labor intensive. Ok, one week and you'll be loving your Z again. Fingers crossed for ya 525. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bastaad525 Posted September 26, 2003 Share Posted September 26, 2003 To be honest dude I didn't even check to see if it spun or not I just stopped it with my hand before we started the car, I didn't want to take any risk of damaging the bearing. But if you're wondering if you're bringing the turbo to a quick death and dont have the $$$ for a replacement... why not just turn the boost back down a bit? I'm not gonna push past 10... well okay... actually there's some more good news, while this guy has my car, he's also got some mandrel bend sections of piping from an HKS intercooler kit, he's gonna see if he can mount my intercooler before I get the car back. THEN maybe I'll bring it up a little more, maybe 12psi IF I can support that on stock injection. So let me get something straight here... will an intercooler increase the power output of the engine at the same boost level? Or will it just let me run more boost to get more power? I'm looking at the thing right now and just seeing dancing ponies in my head Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rags Posted September 26, 2003 Share Posted September 26, 2003 Power levels will increase at a specific boost pressure because the charge will be cooler. Cooler charge is more dense. Joe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rags Posted September 26, 2003 Share Posted September 26, 2003 525, Just read one of your previous posts and you said your car is running really rich. I have seen this cause a crop dusting condition on my car! I had a grounding problem on my TEC II that caused the engine to run very rich. I thought I'd poured so much fuel into the motor that I washed the rings. Once I go the richness sourted out, I changed the plugs and oil and no more smoke. It did take a few minutes to burn all the oil in the turbo and exhaust manifold. Joe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Afshin Posted September 26, 2003 Share Posted September 26, 2003 Excellent point rags. BTW how do you and Jersey keep your Z's in such nice shape with the NJ climate ? My previous two Z's from my NJ days (Paramus and New Brunswick) rotted out a long long long time ago despite all my love and effort to maintain them Fortunately now my california Z does not have a single spec of rust. How could I ever return ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rags Posted September 26, 2003 Share Posted September 26, 2003 I get them in California, ship them here, then never use them in the rain or winter! Strictly fair weather only. Joe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jersey Posted September 26, 2003 Share Posted September 26, 2003 Don't come back to NJ Afshin. Stay in nice sunny San Fran. It's a real rat race around here now. Garaged and driven mostly only on dry days. No winters. My Z isn't half as nice as Joe's judging by his pictures. This winter i'm going to have to really concentrate on the body because it's starting to show some wear. It looks better in the pics than it really is, but thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Afshin Posted September 26, 2003 Share Posted September 26, 2003 Mine were daily drivers with nice shiny paint, spooling turbo’s, lead foot and rotting chassis (bad combo). We finally gave up on NJ/East coast 2 years ago and decided to stay out here (wife and kids all like it). Jersey I’ll be sure to let you know when an network administrator position opens up (unfortunately, at this rate it will be another 5-10years) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jersey Posted September 26, 2003 Share Posted September 26, 2003 Thanks Afshin. Wish my entire family (italian) would move with me but just too many hooks here in NJ so, it seems i'm STUCK here FOREVER!!! ha. Yup, i remember those days as well. Below is the first Z i owned in 1988 at the ripe age of 20. Enkie rims, big throat intake, aluminum flywheel, comp clutch & PP, 2 1/2" mandral, new floors....all to just to get beat by the salt. I sold this back in '92 with rust just gaining on the car. She ran like heck for sure. Thought i'd never get a Z again until last year or so when my current 240 just "popped up" and begged to be bought And yes, those are fog lights and louvers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bastaad525 Posted September 26, 2003 Share Posted September 26, 2003 I like the way louvers look on old Z's... plus they keep your stuff from getting fried by the sun. Not that I have anything back there, just my small toolset. But the new carpet I bought is getting cooked. I really need to either get the rear window tinted or get some louvers real soon. rags - it's not running super rich... the wierd thing is that this is another problem that cropped up AFTER the head rebuild. Before the rebuild the car didn't run rich at all, the plugs looked perfectly tan. After the rebuild I notice them starting to get darker and darker, gradually. The last time I saw them dry, w/o being coated with oil, they were just a few shades darker than they should have been. They weren't all sooty though the way they'd be if they were super rich. Just a bit darker than normal... most of them were only dark on one side and the other side was tan like it should be. The last time I looked at the plugs though they were all oil fouled and were black. What I wonder is, can the fact that oil is being burned in there cause the plugs to darken like if you were running rich? I mean it IS made of the same stuff as fuel, and so technically there is more 'fuel' burning in the cylinders than there's supposed to be. I dunno.... After I get the car back though fixing the rich running condition (if it is still present) will be my next priority. I'm looking at buying a MegaSquirt and installing it ASAP, or if I can't get the cash in a relatively short time I'll buy an adjustable FPR and/or maybe crack open the AFM and adjust it, see if I can lean it out... preferably I'll get to do this at a dyno or at least at the smog place my friend works at, so I can get an actual accurate reading of how rich or lean it is running under load. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bastaad525 Posted September 27, 2003 Share Posted September 27, 2003 UPDATE!!! The head came off today. First thing my friend noticed... my suspicion was right, it's the WRONG FUGGIN HEAD GASKET (this one is part my fault I should have noticed when I was putting it on)!!! Some 8-10 holes that transfer oil/coolant from block to head were blocked off, the gasket is an older N/A gasket. BUT... there was NO sign of any leakage from any of the blocked passages or any thing at all really... as far as we can tell the gasket was NOT in any way related to the smoke. Second thing we found was that the hose that comes off the oil pan, I guess it's the turbo drain hose? That hose had a crack in it, which explains why I saw smoke in the engine bay and possibly why the exhaust smell in the car keeps getting worse. Now it get's really interesting though. This friend of mine doing the work has also been working on Z's for a long time (NOT the same guy that swapped in the turbo motor though) and has tore down a lot of engines. His oppinion, judging from what he can see so far, of the cylinder walls and piston tops, and also the amount of free play that the piston has in the cylinder (side to side), he says he's 90% sure that the block must have had a recent rebuild. ?!?!?!?!?! He'll have the pistons out in a couple hours and will know for sure at that point, but he says with what he can see right now and the numbers from my compression test in mind, he has a feeling the rings are gonna end up being just fine. He also went over the head and said the head looked great. He's going to swap in the brown valve seals that TimZ sent me (thanks again Tim!) just for the heck of it... but otherwise, if the rings do end up looking good... then it's a real mystery as to what on earth was causing the smoke. Well now knowing what I know about the head gasket I guess it's not a waste either way, I'm sure that would have caused problems at some point, and he'll put my new rings and those good seals in anyways so I'll be better off... but I just feel like for the most part this is gonna end up being all for nothing... just please please please let it not smoke anymore once he get's it back together.... Oh a couple other things... more good reasons that this guy is doing this... apparently the head bolts weren't torqued anywhere near to spec, and a couple of the intake and exhaust manifold bolts were loose... great job this other guy did grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr........ well at least now I'll know that the thing is done right Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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