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What do you think of the SDS EIC?


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Guest bastaad525

I'm seriously considering purchasing one right now. The whole thing came up when someone pointed out that someone was selling Apex'i Super AFC II units cheap on ebay, which is a piggyback programmable ECU. I know everyone will just say "go SDS" but it's not exactly cheap for guys like me, who are, as you put it, doing a "low budget turbo setup". I dont have the $$$ for an SDS or Tech. What I DO have, is a desire to have a little more control over the fuel injection on my pretty much bone stock '82 turbo EFI. The only other viable option for me is a megasquirt setup, which I'm also heavily considering purchasing. I guess I'm just lazy and a piggy back ecu sounds way easier to do to me. After finally figuring out exactly what the EIC does, I think I'd rather just go with a piggy back computer though. Not to mention the EIC is pretty pricey in and of itself, considering megasquirt can be done for like $500 or so, and that Super AFC was like $250 I think?

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Guest bastaad525

Cant say how well it works... I can kinda describe what it does. It basically takes in a number of parameters that your stock ECU provides, and then, using those #'s and the fuel curve you specify, it modifies the signal coming from the AFM, to 'trick' the ECU, thus allowing you a 'programmable' fuel curve. It seems to be very flexible, I believe you can change the fuel curve in 500rpm increments. Not sure how it works with or adjusts itself for on boost or off boost, but considering the company is well known among ricers, and turbo's being so common on small imports nowadays, I"m sure it can do it. They list for like $400 but someone here pointed some out on ebay that were going for like $250. I only hope I haven't missed my chance by the time I have the $$$. Apparently though, only one person here (awd92gsx) has ever attempted to use one of these on a 1st gen Z or had any success doing so. If it does what it says it does I think it would be perfect for a budget way of going with higher boost safely and also maybe helping with off boost driveability too?

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the good part about the eic that i like so much is that when you are out of boost or its preset activation point, car will drive perfectly normal.

its cheap when you consider all the extras of an sds system, like 6 huge injectors, sensors, setting it up, frustration, and dyno tuning sessions or buying a very expensive wb o2 to do it yourself. you can dyno that eic in an hour with one knob, its starting to look good.....

Super afc would be nice too, seems like a tie from my perspective.

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Guest bastaad525

Super AFC should be easier... dont have to mount any extra injectors. I could be wrong though... EIC looks much easier to wire. I would think if you knew what you were doing or could go to someone who does, you should be able to tune the AFC to run just fine under normal driving as well.

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I like the way the EIC feeds on boost.

 

Would the MAS give the same info the the Apex-i, before the turbo??

 

other than that I like the looks of the Apex-i one. The way I see it you would need bigger injectors. and you could choke them down at low RPM and let them rip at high RPM...

 

But this make me think it is based on rpm it could make your car run rich when it is not under boost... or maybe I have it all wrong?

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Guest bastaad525

Yeah that's what I was saying, I'm not sure how it handles being on or off boost, if it has any way of reading boost at all. Again, I would think, given who it's target buyer would be, that it SHOULD be able to compensate for boost.

 

Then again, if you think about it, it's only modifying the signal, it's not creating one. So, doesnt the stock ECU compensate for more boost? Then you are just modifying that signal.

 

In other words:

 

At 4000RPM, NO boost, your ECU is saying, "I need X amount of fuel now!" and with the AFC is modifying that amount, say, +10%

 

But then, at 4000RPM, WOT, 10psi of boost, the ECU is saying "man that's a lot more air coming in, I need X amount of fuel for that!" and your AFC is still modifying that amount by +10%.

 

But... I do think it would be 5x better if you could set a the amount of compensation when on boost... hopefully that is the case.

 

By the way, I checked Ebay, just to see if there were still good deals... there are PLENTY of these things floating around for $150-300, either the S-AFC model 1 or the model 2 (the only physical difference I can see is that one has buttons and the two has a knob... I'm sure there is some functional difference too). Either way... way more 'budget' than a full SDS, or SDS EIC, or even a Megasquirt.

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to get either one right you either need wb or dyno time, a lot of dyno time for the afc since you would have to tune for cruise and vac, vs. eic which you would dyno for boost pretty much strictly.

Brad are you setting up a Ka24et??? So am I!!!!!

Afc would be good for those cars, since you could probably get a bolt in version with a wiring harness that would simply plug in, and would be a godo way to get a turbo setup running on one. We are probably going sds with ours, my buddy is trying to find dish KA pistons, any luck with that?

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Guest bastaad525

I agree there... I figured it was going to take quite a few pulls at the dyno to get it anywhere near right. And the EIC does have it beat there.

 

Okay humor me here... lets say I DID go EIC, but mind you, still no intercooler installed... how much more boost over 10psi could I SAFELY run? Or is all the extra fuel in the world gonna do me no good without the I/C?

 

I wanted the AFC for tunability under ALL circumstances.. I guess the deluded part of me thinks maybe that would help with some of the problematic issues I am having right now (I know I know... this kinda thing is never solution to a problem, but something you install once your problems are solved). And of course I figured I could get some extra power out of it too, but now that I think about the amount of $$$ that dyno time is gonna cost, I am leaning back towards the EIC, for ease, cost, and just to get more power, safely. And then to just keep working at figuring out how to really fix the cars problems instead of covering them up.

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A bud of mine is wanting more HP in his 91 240sx. And I would like to help him out, but $$$ is tight.

 

This is what I was thinking.

 

-custom turbo header made by me and a bud (if you need manifold or turbo flanges let me know, i just ordered a ka24de exhaust gasket to make up a auto cad dwg. so I can get it laser cut.)

 

-t3 turbo

 

-raising rate fuel regulator

 

-bell core with end tanks made by me and a bud again.

 

-300zx fuel pump

 

That would be good for 6-7psi then I would need some more fuel to get it to 12psi. any thing more than that and its time for some forged pistons....

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Guest bastaad525

Then again, if the AFC specifically gives you % parameter changes, for instance, here's your 8 points adjustable curve, +10 +10 +10 +15 +10 +5 +5 +0, in percentages of change above or below the AFM's original signal, then I would think if your'e starting with a good running car, and the AFC starting with all points set to 0 (no change from the AFM's base signal) then you could probably tune it pretty well just by the seat'o'the'pants dyno. People seem to be pretty good about judging those differences... for instance... regular driving is good, but you can feel it leans out a bit on boost... so richen up the curve from 3000 on up a little bit at a time, until you stop noticing improvment. You could probably get pretty close this way, then just fine tune on the dyno.

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Guest bastaad525

I still want to know how much more boost over 10psi could I run with the extra fuel provided by the EIC, OR, how much more boost I could run with the extra fuel control of the AFC, OR, how much more boost I could run by just installing an RRFPR and raising the fuel pressure a few lbs.

 

 

If I could get the same or nearly the same effect out of an RRFPR that would be awesome as that is definately the cheapest, easiest mod of the 3.

 

Please someone give me some opinions here :(

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Guest bastaad525

Not everyone goes that route... Jersey was running 13.3 with 2.5" exhaust and no I/C, at 10psi. Bigger always seem to be one of the last things anyone does, after programmable fuel. You can achieve a lot with programmable fuel and stock injectors. There are lots of paths you can go, no one prescribed path. For me, as bad as this may sound, I'm going the path of "get the cheapest parts first and work my way up" but still shooting for the same end result. Anyways, I have the I/C, it just needs to be modified a bit and then I need the piping made... and that is not gonna be very cheap. An RRFPR can be had for cheap though, maybe $150.

 

It's funny how every time I ask this question everyone just falls back on putting the I/C in, but no one is saying you CANT run 12psi safely with more fuel and no I/C... problem is no one is saying you CAN either. But, WHY would I not be able to run more boost, even a little more boost, if I had the extra fuel to support it, say, with an RRFPR. 12psi = more air + RRFPR = more fuel needed for more air = should be safe, right? Also, I want more fuel because everyone I've known or talked to that has even run 10psi on stock efi, though they said it ran good and didn't ping at all, they have all said that it WOULD run lean on top. So that, factored in with cost, factored in with potential to run a little more boost, and I keep seeing that maybe I should go THIS route, to augment fuel first, THEN worry about the big bucks it's gonna take to get the I/C in (at last estimate, was looking at about $400 to install it).

 

I do know one guy who says he's run as much as 15psi NON INTERCOOLED on a stock ZXT and ECCS, with the fuel to support it. He was using a Tek, which I know is a far cry above just an RRFPR, but he thinks with JUST the extra fuel I should be able to run at least a couple more PSI safely. Can I get one oppinion from here on this please? W/o just saying "well... put in an I/C".

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Guest bastaad525

by the way before anyone takes what I said the wrong way, when I said "and still shoot for the same end result" I'm not implying, end result as in how much HP I'm going for, and trying to get there cheaply.

 

I mean more like, starting with the cheap parts first, but my target end result is, in the end, to have these mods:

 

3" mandrel bent exhaust

Intercooler

Some way of having SOME control over fuel supplied, either FPR, or programmable something

Some way of affecting ignition timing, either switching to a different distributor, or using an MSD boost retard unit, or using something programmable

A better fuel pump

Bigger injectors

And if the car is what I consider "fast enough" by then, then a bigger turbo.

 

I dont have a numerical HP goal, but I know that with these mods I'll have a car that is by all means a fast car, and that's all I want. If I have any numerical goal it's to be at around low 13's in the 1/4, and a 0-60 of around 5 seconds.

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I see your point.

 

I'm no pro but I think you can up your boost and add more fuel. This will work but you will detonate sooner with that hot air. And I think you will need to add more fuel to stop it from doing so.

 

Not this is a bad thing it will give you more HP, it will just not be as efficient...

 

You could just run alcohol then you would not need an I/C :twisted:

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