Before I start, Anything wrong with this?

[BrandonsZ]

Ok I got funding for my project car like 8 months ago, but I have been too busy to do anything but think about it so a lot of thought has gone into this. (mostly at work reading this board).

 

So I got a good rate for a brand new latest generation chevy ZZ383 with no miles outside the dyno shop. It's 425hp and 430ft.lbs with the fast burn heads, and a dual plane low profile manifold subtract 20hp so it'll fit under the stock hood with no mods. I'm planning on using an upgraded 700R4 rated at 500hp and 550+ torque. With a 2000rpm stall. I'll follow the JTR like it was the bible, and I can funnel money into this project if I need to. Q#1 Reasonable?

 

 

I want to set it up to top out at 5krpm, lots of low end torque therefore 1st would be something like 50mph@5k, and the other three gears will follow. Q#2 Is this reasonable?

 

 

I got my eye on a 1972 240Z a guy I know who wants to give up the weekly garage stops to the shop and doesn't know the box end from the open end of a wrench on his old car which is suprisingly good conditon, no rust, straight, nice all-around, drives good, bit of a slug 4spd stick. It's old and stock. Either this one or a similar one. Q#3 Any comments?

 

I want to "mate" them and make the hybrid from this. I have a few extra bucks 'cause my wife talked me into buying her a new car after 2 years of begging her to let me buy her a 54-57 Belair and I told her that I could make a better car than hers with half the cost. So that's why I'm not going cheap.

 

Q#4 Any comments? Please. Thank you.

 

P.S. After all that she wants a new car and says, "you could have the bel air." 8) Sorry babe, I need speed and I'd rather start with 2500lbs than 5000lbs. But all's forgiven, she let me buy a '73 4x4 F250 and now I'm set to tow the hybrid if it overheats or flips over from the excess torque.

[wheelman]

Everything sounds reasonable to me, some comments:

 

Go through that 240 with a fine toothed comb to make sure there is no rust. Check under the battery, the floor boards, the frame rails and the rocker panels specifically. A rust free 240 is rare and something to grab.

 

You'll want to reinforce the unibody on the 240 by installing a cage and/or sub-frame connectors. Do sub-frame connectors at a minimum, if you're going to drag race then a cage is a good idea.

 

Upgrade the brakes by replacing the front rotors with 300ZX vented and using the Toyota 4 piston calipers, or something similar and replace the rears with disks.

 

Replace the R180 differential with an R200 and use CV joint half-shafts from a 300ZX turbo rather than the stock units. This will eliminate the u-joints in the half-shafts as a weak point.

 

Wlecome to the board and enjoy your project, sounds like you've planned it out well.

 

Wheelman

[Pop N Wood]

If you have been doing a lot of reading on this site then you probably already know this, but these cars are too light to make use of a lot of low end torque. Not to worry though. All it means is you can build the car for more high end HP and still have more low end torque than you can use. go single plane vic jr and a bit more cam/roller rockers. Look at some old Grumpyvette posts on building for HP instead of torque.

 

But that sounds like a good engine the way it is.

 

I personnally am not a big fan of cages, but some type of reinforcing is needed. 240's flex more than the 280's. Subframe connectors and strut bars are unobstrusive. But do some reading, get some more opinions and do a partial to full cage if you feel comfortable with that.

 

The vented Toyota brakes and rear disks are a good idea, but heavy. If your budget allows there are much better options for front brakes, but not cheaper.

 

Budget a good bit for suspension work. At a minimum all urethane bushings and some quality struts. You don't really need adjustable arms unless you plan to race. IMO Coilovers fall in that same catagory, but I suppose many would disagree with that statement. At any rate 30 year old springs will need replacing, 383 or not.

 

Wheelman's advice on the rear end are as good as any. The other option is to go easy on the holeshots. The R200 upgrade is easy and cheap, the CV's a good bit more. With that much engine I feel LSD will be a must, but there are no "cheap" options anymore. Either way make sure you check the 240 stub axles carefully since those are weaker than the 280 units and without rear disks spinning a stub axle will cause wheel separation.

[silicone boy]

Good engine choice. I was deep into my 383 build whe the ZZ383 hit the market with tons of torque/horsepower at a good price. I understand all the concerns about a lot of torque in a light car (remember, even a 280 weighs less than a modern honda civic). On the other hand, a lot of people here run 383's and 400's, and they don't mind the extra torque at all. Heck, there was a picture of a small block 427 Zcar in Hot Rod doing a wheelstand, and I'm sure that guy liked the torque

[BrandonsZ]

Awsome, that's great advice. Now I have a "launching point" from which to start this massive, life-consuming project.

 

[wheelman] Are there any kits for a streetable sub-frame upgrade?

 

[pop-n-wood] I'm going with this car for the weight, so I certainly don't want to buy heavy breaks, any suggestions for the rear breaks if the toyota's are heavy? It's always good to start somewhere.

 

[siliconeboy] I figure I'll let the experts do the hard work of the engine and let me have all the fun. I like to bolt on a black box and let it work. I like the 3 year 30kmi warrenty, why struggle with it? Plus there are so many choices it'd take a month just to get a handle on what pushrods to use.

 

After my previous projects, it seems I am always knee deep in a project for a long time and then when I'm finally done, I'm tired of it. So I want to get this thing on the road immediately, and the advice you gave sounds perfectly simple enough to start me out.

 

So if I just pop in the motor and trans without any other mods, the car will shoot like a bat out of hell, then it won't stop, then the car will twist in half and the rear wheels will pop off? Sounds cool.

[wheelman]

Brandon,

As far as I know there aren't any prefabbed kits to install sub-frame connectors but if you do a search in the Brakes, Wheels, Suspension and Chassis forum for frame rail replacement you'll get some ideas.

 

Wheelman

[Guest 305240]

Ditto to all of the above. The 240 weighs around 2400 pounds. There is a reason for this. The engine was small enough the body could handle what the engine put out. Now, add what you want into it and something has to give. Remember, you are going to be a bit heavier on the front end to begin with. I guarentee you the urge to do a few burn outs will overcome you. When you can't close your doors, you will wish you did the suspension/frame upgrade. A lot of people start out with the 280 to do what you want. The body is a lot stronger, and the extra weight doesn't hurt a bit. You will probably add that much just moddinig it so it will hold together.

[Pop N Wood]

One current thread on brakes

 

http://hybridz.org/nuke/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=37139&sid=80c342d6a62abbd3da69dd56e86cd7c6

 

There are others. I have a bunch of links on good brake threads on this site that no longer work. Do a bit of reading. Budget will be a big concern. Lot of opinion, but the rear drums in good condition aren't that bad. But Ross at Modern Motorsports had a kit that allows stock 240sx rear disks. This is a nice set up and will help keep your wheel attached to the car should you twist a stub axle.

 

For front brakes, you want to drop some $$. The JSK's, Arizona Z car and Modern Motorsport kits are all excellent. do a search.

[BrandonsZ]

[305240 & wheelman] I totally agree, I might look into 280's before I buy the 240. I think you'd have to be pretty careful if you don't know what you're doing with welding, and stiffening the car to heck. I've been looking at what others have done, and some of them would take a lot of time and effort. I also agree that I should not tax this car till the frame is stiffened, and if that means not installing the engine until I can do that that's probably the smartest thing to do. But i'm getting that feeling in the back of my mouth like you are about to eat something really good and then I start druling when I think about that 400+hp in a 2400lb car. I guess I better not let me wife drive it, she'd probably flip it.

 

[Pop-N-Wood] there are so many choices, I really get stuck, but I'll get there.

 

I can hear it now...

 

"No honey, that's why I bought you that 'safe' new car you wanted. "

 

"Yes honey I do care but...but...but... "

 

"I bought YOU the new car, this is MY car!@@#$!! "

 

"Yes dear.... ##$@% "

 

On second thought,

 

I suppose it better be safe, maybe I'll put a 1800cc volkswagon deisel in it.

[Guest Z-rific]

My first post in months.

 

I might think about a torque converter with a little more stall than 2000. You may want to consider ~2500.

 

Anybody else agree?

[Guest 305240]

I dreamed of a hybrid for a long time. Not having the right year I wanted, I used what I had. A 72 240. I really didn't have a choice at the time. I started out with a stripped out, cut up parts car that had a title. I used a 75 280 for almost all of my interior parts and front header panel. It also donated an R200, but no half shafts. I got a great deal on an 81 5.0 stang engine. I also have a 81 C4. The only mods I'm doing to it for the time being is a 85 5.0 stang factory intake and 600 Holley. I'm sticking with the factory manifolds and sidepipes. So far, this has been the easiest and cheapest swap I've ever done in my life! I'm sure the R180 will hold up for at least awhile. Then, I just picked up a 76...Ahh what to do...Note: I live in southern Oregon and almost all of the Z cars I find are relitivly rust free.

[BrandonsZ]

[305240] But you had fun right? If not, then it was fun driving it when it was done right? Would you do it all over again?

[BrandonsZ]

With a 2000 stall converter, I figured it would limit the torque off the line since that 383 engine has so much torque and all you'll end up with is wheelspin. I am used to driving a stick, but it's true when you really want to accellerate I fether the clutch up to 3k. But it's a tiny engine in my honda. This is a brute. Would a 2500 stall torque converter waste mileage for not much more improvement in useable power?

[Mikelly]

Not sure if this has been mentioned, as I didn't read all the replies, but the Victor Jr. on my 383 stroker fit easily under the stock hood of my 260Z with no clearance issues... Why give up the extra 20HP?

 

Mike 8)

[Guest 305240]

My Cobra Z isn't finished yet, but I'm having a blast building it. I love searching ebay for great deals and hunting the internet for some trick stuff. I enjoy the archives on this forum, as you can find out how to do something after someone has done all the hard work and made mistakes trying to get it right. This forum rocks!

 

Heck, just the wiper upgrade info is worth it. Then...someone is always comming up with some sweet mod, and then the search to do it my way starts all over again. I guess you an say I'm addicted.

 

In answer to your question, given what I have to work with, yes, I'd do the same thing over again. However, In gathering all these parts cars, I now have a relitively rust free 76 that I'm seriously thinking of going SBC. I would have to go with an automatic as my knees are going south on me. Damn, it's hell to get old. It would still be carberated. Man do I love these things!

[Guest Z-rific]

Do a search here for "torque converters" and I'm sure you'll find lots of info.

 

My setup probably puts out about 330 HP (flywheel). I started with a stock torque converter. I have a TH350 with a shift kit. When I would shift from park or neutral to gear, I would get minor necklash. Also, just sitting at a stop sign required standing pretty hard on the brakes (all stock brakes).

 

So I went to a speed shop and the guy recommended to me a 2500 (may be 2600) rpm TC. Now my car is much more "drivable" and easy to manage. But burnouts are tougher and no more tire chirp shifting into 2nd under accelleration. (Which is fun for a while).

 

Ideally, I think about 2200 would be good for my setup, but you have more power and torque than me, so more is required. 425hp and 430 ft/lbs torque is a lot for such a light car, so losing power under 2500 rpm will help with launches and everyday driving. You may also consider a single plane intake to push your power curve up in rpms a little.

 

Hopefully someone with similar power #'s to yours will chime in.

[BrandonsZ]

[MIKELLY] I will go with Victor Jr., why not.

 

[z-rific] It's makeing sence now, I don't know enough about this but now it's starting to make sence. The higher stall actually keeps the car from losing traction? Doesn't it put the rpms in a higher (more powerful) bracket? I would think it would peal out more, but shifting softer does make sence.

 

In fact the only things I like on the ZZ383 is the aluminum fast burn heads and the new (non-rebuilt) block. Nothing else really interests me, but I would like to use a Q-jet because I can get one with a automatic choke and mechanical secondaries. What do you think about this setup?

[Guest Z-rific]

Actually, what is basically happening is the torque converter cuases the transmission to "slip" (for lack of a better term) so power to the wheels is reduced. The converter will slip to roughly the rpm of the "stall". So under, say 2500 rpm, you wont have full power, which you really don't need anyway. The power band of your cam is probably fairly high.

 

At least this is how I've always been told t works. I really wish a tranny expert will jump in and give you more technical explanation.

 

But, since you will lose low rpm torque, it will be easier to launch without boiling down your tires. A ton of low rpm torque isn't necessarily a great thing in a lightweight car, especially if you have an open differential and only one tire is spinning helplessly.

[BrandonsZ]

It's amazing how much I learned from this site. It's been a nearly daily reference. I decided against the zz383 and got a more universal Edelbrock 350. Amazingly it is getting 25mpg on the highway, to help with the better mileage is the .5:1 6th in the T56 manual tranny, which is (I feel) a better choice than the 200r4 auto with a .67:1 4th I originally wanted. After driving an auto for 5 years (suburban and cadillac) and then switching to stick (chevy and Honda), then having to drive an auto again (volvo), I just like the stick better overall. I don't need as much stiffening with the higher 1st gear (2.66:1), although it is way too much power with more than 1mm of gas pedal. It calculates out that my torque in 1st is 70% (1.7x) more then stock, although my torque at 65mph in 2nd is 110% (2.1x) more than stock. I did add some strips under the car and I'm going to add a panel to protect the oil pan, and some stiffening for the front crossmember to the frame.

 

The JTR manual was a big help (and kept me motivated) in the early stages, but would probably need to be 100+ pages more to contain all the information I really needed to finish this thing.

 

The purchase date was 12/05/04 first start-up was 7am Sunday morning August 28th, 2005 the first test drive was Saturday September 4th, 2005. I drove a lot this weekend.

 

The car feels like a 4-wheeled motorcycle, you can feel everything. Even though it has an open differential, both wheels peal when you give it too much throttle. The car dropped 1" in the front (including the lower crossmember which raised the car .5") so a total drop of .5" front and .5" rear.

 

Engine: My edelbrock 350 tuned to run on pump gas has instant response, and the electric choke makes starting effortless. It fits very well in the engine bay about 1" from the firewall (too much modification to the tunnel using the Lakewood bell housing for that last inch mounts slotted forward .5"). I can get to all the plugs, and everything else. I did drop the cross member .5" and there is .25" space from the 3"x14" air cleaner to the hood in three places.

 

Cooling: There is about 2.5" from the front of the (long) water pump to the flex-a-lite 180 Extreme electric fan on the Stealth Conversions radiator, the shroud fits perfect inside the radiator mounts and covers 99% of the radiator, it keeps the car perfectly at 180-190F under all types of driving.

 

Transmission: The LS1-T56 puts the shifter in the stock location if you have a straight stick that is about 3.5" long (I made one from a M12x1.25 X3" bolt and a 3/4" x 1/4" bar welded, ground and drilled). I had to flip the stock shift boot and move it rearward 2", I had to move the stock console rearward 3/4", and I had to cut out 1/2" from the rearward shifter opening (in the metal). (watch for the fuel and brake lines which I came extremely close to).

 

 

Exhaust: The tone sounds perfect with a 3" Flowmaster Delta 40 in the stock muffler location, and another 3" resonator, although it is louder than I like, if you stay off the throttle in easy driving it is mild inside the car (the fuel pump is louder), I might add a couple more resonators after the headers because when you put the throttle down it really screams. I have Sanderson 1.75" block hugger headers and I had to put gaskets in because it would not seal between the two middle ports. Then 2.5" exhaust on both sides of the transmission through the Stealth Conversions trans mount and Y'd directly after. Then it merges to 3". There was no room for a crossover pipe, the only place I could put one would be under the oil pan or in front of the engine, so I skipped it. It was right on the hairy edge of fitting. I had to massage the trans tunnel to fit the exhaust in one place and dent the exhaust pipe in two places to get at least 1/4" clearance to everything.

 

 

A few important words of wisdom I have after doing this swap are:

 

1. Completely isolate the fuel pump on rubber isolators and get one that is quiet, however it sounds you'll hear it louder inside than outside. Don't mount it to the gas tank, it acts like an amplifier.

 

2. If you need a tool, buy it, rent it, borrow it, and get it somehow because a lot of time is wasted in trying to fabricate a tool or using the wrong tool.

 

3. Keep it as simple as possible and don't concentrate on details that you can do after it's back on the road. (even with that mindset it still took 9 months. For reference, the exhaust alone took three - 12hour straight days).

 

4. Don't be afraid to innovate if you think you can do it better. Moving the hood latch over 3.25" toward the driver's side and modifying it slightly was all it needed to avoid the SBC standard MSD distributor.

 

5. The drivetrain must be a bit heavier since it lowered 1" front and .5" rear with a T-56, and SBC 350 with aluminum water pump, heads, and intake at about 1" from the firewall, (the Lakewood bell housing with an external clutch slave cylinder needed a fair amount of trans tunnel massaging.) The original trans mounts did not need to be removed, but I did pound on the passenger side original mount to move it about 1/4". I used the original trans mounts for exhaust hangers.

 

6. Keep your tools and parts as organized as you possibly can even to the point of OCD, I would put all my tools away 3 to 4 times during a 12 hour day between tasks to regroup and make sure I could find everything. When removing parts, I documented each part on the car, then off the car, then on the shelf so I could be sure I could find it and put it back on. Swept the floor after each time I cleaned up my tools.

 

On balance I could have bought a really nice car for what I spent on this car, but I consider the 9 months of work to be training and it broadened my understanding of every part of a car, and if I bought another Honda, I'd probably be happy, but somehow I think this was worth it, and my prelude si never felt like it was going to fly in 4th (1:1).

 

Thanks to all who helped me in this project! I really appreciate it, and in return, PM me for any questions you have and I'll try to answer them and give pictures if I can.

[Mike kZ]

Congrats!! I like point #6 You'd be suprised how much this helps. You tend to lose track of things very quickly if you don't keep up.