Calling all Camaro and SB Chevy Guru's

[jgkurz]

Hi fellow Z enthusiasts,

 

I have a close friend looking at purchasing a show quality 1969 Z/28 Camaro. I know a fair amount about these cars, but am little concerned about the originality of the cylinder heads. The car has angle plug heads which I've never seen on a 1st generation Z/28. Supposedly angle plug heads were put on by the factory in 1969, but in limited quantity. I'd like to submit this question to a forum like ours, but for Camaro's or Z/28's. Any suggestions for a quality Z/28 forum?

 

Thanks for your advice.

[Guest Magnum Rockwilder]

The cylinder-head casting number for ALL Z/28's are #3927186. The number is under the valve cover between the last two sets of rockers on the driver's side or the first two sets on the passenger's side. Don't buy without removeing the valve covers and verifying the numbers.

 

The intake manifold is #3932472.

 

All '69 Z/28s had model number 12437 on the cowl tag.

 

No Z/28s were equipped with air conditioning.

 

All had 302's and 4spd's.

 

Here's a full list of numbers:

 

http://www.x33d80.com/identification.htm

[Guest A2Z]

^ what he said.

[dr_hunt]

The angle plug heads are not original. the xxxx186 head castings never had angled spark plugs. That head is either the angle plug corvette head, 1970 through 1972 or it is a GM bowtie head of even later production.

[jgkurz]

Interesting. The seller is an extremely well respected individual in the 1st Gen Z/28 world and is confident that the heads are original. His credibility comes from selling over 250 1st Gen Z/28's and is a regular at Barret-Jackson. However, it would be nice to have some documentation to support his claims. A couple things come to mind.

 

1) Could this particular Z/28 be a late 69 which may have gotten the new "angle plug" heads that were for the 70 LT1?

 

2) Like the cross ram intake, could the "angle plug" heads be dealer installed and sold as new? Maybe the car was still on a lot in 1970 and had the mods done prior to being titled.

 

I'll be getting the cyl head casting #'s and manufacture dates tomorrow which should help solve the mystery.

[Kevin Shasteen]

To state the obvious..,

 

People will often make claims that can not be supported - and people who pride themselves as an expert will often times make claims that follow in anger when you challenge them on it.

 

Dont pay the full price unless he can absolutely prove those are the original heads....no matter how upset he gets when you challenge him on it.

 

Just because he potentially got screwed on the price of the car due to thinkng those heads are original doesnt mean you have to. A 100% correct car is not 100% correct if you dont have the original heads with you when you drive away.

 

Negotiations are Negotiations - even if the rest of the car, driveline, and engine block are original....the heads may still not be original: dont let his potential loss be your loss.

 

If its a nice car and you still want it - the burden of proof is on him and words are worthless. Be sure you make him PROVE THOSE HEADS ARE ORIGINAL WITH DOCUMENTATION.

 

If the heads are not original and he told you they are - then he was wrong in one area...if he was wrong in one area then he could be wrong in many areas. The point I'm trying to make here is his potential mistake goes to character.

 

Dont let his mouth do the talking on the negotiations - let the demonstrative evidence (paper documentaion) do the talking.

 

Good luck...those Z/28's rock! 8)

 

Kevin,

(Yea,Still an Inliner)

[jgkurz]

Kevin, Thanks for the negotation advice. Always a good reminder. Turns out the heads were dealer installed before the car was titled. The seller has offered to supply an extra set of the proper "186" heads. At least we now know what we're dealing with.

[dr_hunt]

alot of the options on 67-69 z28's were dealer installed options and were never factory installed. There is little if any difference in the heads in terms of performance. Chevy claimed 15HP increase at 7K with the spark plug angled, however production heads vary so much in air flow, that small of an increase is not something to bank on.

 

If the car was "show quality" and going to be judged, it'd get knocked pretty hard for having the wrong heads, whether or not they were dealer installed or not since they are the wrong year.

 

Watch out on those extra set of heads, are they usable?? Cracked? Excessively milled??? Valve guides shot??? Bolt holes stripped??? Do they have the correct 2.02/1.60 valve size?? Have they been rebuilt too many times and have the valves sunk into the seats excessively?? Were they original heads with screw in studs and guide plates or were they modified?? 186's with 2.02 valves, screw in studs and guide plates are very very rare in original form, they didn't make many and all were on the DZ302 or the vette engines.

[Mike C]

There are a TON of things to look for. The 186 were one of the heads, there may have been others including 041. Even the 70 cars did NOT have angled plugs. No factory installed angle plugs on iron heads. The Norwood cars have an X code on the cowl tag that id's a Z/28. X77 or X44. The California cars do not. Before I spent any money on one of these cars, I would buy Jerry McNeish book on the 69 Z/28.

 

Some of the things to look for, some are obvious some not: 12 bolt rear, 4 leaf rear springs NOT 5, Factory dual exhaust reinforcements on ddrivers side, deep groove pulleys, larger front sway bar (some people say this is a myth, but I have a factory 7/8 bar that came off a 69 and not the 11/16.), front power discs, Muncie aluminum case 4 speed, Hurst shifter with ROUND handle flattened where Hurst is stamped, 3/8 fuel line. GM aluminum intake with welch plug where oil filler tube went, Corvette valve covers, correct carb code on the Holley, etc.

 

Literally a whole book of things different on one of these from a base car. Buy the book before spending $20k plus dollars.