Engine hp per liter

[Hugh]

Well... Nissan/Infinity had a horrible time (and eventually gave up) trying to build a V8 that could compete in the Indy Racing League against the Chevy engines. Honda and Toyota showed up later and put Chevy on the trailer even after Chevy redabged a Cosworth. Toyota had a very difficult time and spent years and hundreds of millions of dollars developing their NASCAR V8 for the Craftsmas truck series.

 

Engine development is not a slam dunk for any manufacturer. Toyota and Lexus 3.0L V6s are getting a pretty bad reputation for blowing head gaskets. Same issue Ford had with their 3.8L V6.

 

Again' date=' this discussion is pointless and no opinions will be changed.[/quote']

 

But last I heard, The other manufacturers in Nascar Truck all ordered an engine from Toyota so they could study it... because Toyota was kicking their asses.

 

This doesn't matter though, because a race team's engine has nothing to do with what goes under the hood of production cars for the most part. It just means those guys made one hell of an engine.

[Hugh]

One thing I noticed about japanese is that they never invent anything ground breaking: they just do a hell of a job improving and perfecting the existing designs. Piston motors, dohc design, variable valve timing, rotaries... hell I should know, I have one

 

 

This is the Japanese way. They absorb everything they can from the world, and take what they like. Then they make it better for less money. (for the most part)

 

There hasn't been much ground breaking in engine design since WWII, and not much was going on with Japanese international trade when they were under the imperial government. They pretty much came out of the dark ages in the 50's.

[HS30-H]

One thing I noticed about japanese is that they never invent anything ground breaking: they just do a hell of a job improving and perfecting the existing designs. Piston motors' date=' dohc design, variable valve timing, rotaries... hell I should know, I have one [/quote']

 

Well, if you are talking about "piston motors, dohc design, variable valve timing, rotaries......" then you could well apply your maxim to the USA as well. None of those were "invented" in the USA, were they?

 

This is the Japanese way. They absorb everything they can from the world' date=' and take what they like. Then they make it better for less money. (for the most part)[/quote']

 

You make it sound like they steal it. If you want to make pronouncements about "The Japanese Way" then I hope you have put in some really thorough research about Japanese history, Japanese culture and Japanese engineering in particular. Seems to me that you are making sweeping generalisations that grew from propaganda more than personal experience.

 

There hasn't been much ground breaking in engine design since WWII' date=' and not much was going on with Japanese international trade when they were under the imperial government. They pretty much came out of the dark ages in the 50's.[/quote']

 

So are they the victims of their own bad timing or the fact that in your opinion engine design pretty much stopped back in 1945?

 

If Japan only "came out of the dark ages" in the 50s, was it a "dark ages" navy and airforce that attacked Pearl Harbour?

[HS30-H]

The 1918 Stutz Bearcats had DOHC, 4 valves per cylinder 4 bangers in a production vehicle.

 

1918? I think you are referring to the Stutz DV32 engine, which was introduced in 1931. It was a straight eight.

 

Why mention Stutz in relation to DOHC pioneers, unless you are trying to infer that the USA was in some way 'first'?

 

Messrs George Boillot, Jules Goux, Ernest Henry and Paulo Zuccarelli are no doubt spinning in their graves at the very thought of it.........

[Pop N Wood]

Just pointing out that the 4 valve per cylinder, DOHC 4 banger is "old technology". Nothing new or high about it.

 

And I do believe 1918 is the correct year. There were other "production" cars of the era with the same technology, I would imagine on all sides of the ocean.

[Hugh]

You make it sound like they steal it. If you want to make pronouncements about "The Japanese Way" then I hope you have put in some really thorough research about Japanese history' date=' Japanese culture and Japanese engineering in particular. Seems to me that you are making sweeping generalisations that grew from propaganda more than personal experience.

[/quote']

 

You should know that I lived in Japan for a total of 5 years, and my wife is Japanese. I think I know a little bit about the people and culture there. But thanks for assuming I'm completely ignorant.

 

So are they the victims of their own bad timing or the fact that in your opinion engine design pretty much stopped back in 1945?

 

According to this thread, none of this technology is new. It all came about back in the early 1900's, and therefore nothing new has ever been made.... its all copies upon copies, improving and making it cheaper all the while. Every country in the world that produces cars is doing this... hell, nothing is "original" anymore. Who cares? My point was, they weren't in the market before WWII, and when they hit the market, there was nothing left to invent... everything had been well established, and they just started off with what works. (just like every other company was already doing... copying from eachother)

 

If Japan only "came out of the dark ages" in the 50s, was it a "dark ages" navy and airforce that attacked Pearl Harbour?

 

There was nothing special about the Japanese military technology in WWII. They had shear numbers, and extreme dedication to duty. The rest of the country was poor, and stuck in the dark ages. I learned this through reading, studying and by visiting museums in Tokyo and stuff like that. I'd say I have a general idea what it was like.

 

For an example of what Japan went through in the 50's, take a look at what Russia and the Eastern Block are going through right now. Coming out of the dark ages.

[Guest ON3GO]

well im not gonna coment on what was said in the last few posts but i will say this.. Nissan DID make a V8 that is up to LS1 standards and i think passed it up.

VQ56DE anybody.. Titan 5.6 .. that motor would rock!!!! with some work done to it!

 

mike

[HS30-H]

You should know that I lived in Japan for a total of 5 years, and my wife is Japanese. I think I know a little bit about the people and culture there. But thanks for assuming I'm completely ignorant.

 

Well, I certainly did not think you were completely ignorant - but coming up with a post like the one below may have influenced my judgement:

 

This is the Japanese way. They absorb everything they can from the world, and take what they like.

 

Sorry, but that made it sound like Japan and the Japanese never came up with an original thought in the whole of their existence. I am glad if I simply misunderstood your sentiments.

 

But hearing that you have a fair amount of personal experience in Japan, I am all the more surprised at what you wrote. I didn't get even a slight hint of respect for Japanese culture and history from it.

 

Maybe its just a difference in language and style that I don't fully understand, but all too often on sites like this I see the Japanese being slated as stealers / copyists, when the truth is a lot more complex and interesting than that.

[HS30-H]

Just pointing out that the 4 valve per cylinder' date=' DOHC 4 banger is "old technology". Nothing new or high about it.

 

And I do believe 1918 is the correct year. There were other "production" cars of the era with the same technology, I would imagine on all sides of the ocean.[/quote']

 

OK, I understand your point - but 1918 is not the correct year and it wasn't in the Stutz Bearcat either. The Stutz Bearcat used a 'T-Head' 4 cylinder engine ( with the inlet and exhaust valves in the block, either side of the pistons ).

 

The Peugeot L3 ( 2981cc ) and L76 ( 7600cc ) engines of 1912 are considered as the first true and useable 'DOHC' auto engine designs. If you wanted pre-1918 you could choose from Peugeot, ALFA, Delage, Humber, Sunbeam, Frontenac, Maxwell and Premier.

 

Want to have an interesting conversation about how people "absorb what they can from the world, and take what they like"? Then let's talk about Harry Miller and the Charlatan Peugeots.......

[Hugh]

Japan does have things that are distinctly japanese... however, if you go there you will see that what is cool is foreign. It's their culture to want to be like other countries... I'm not saying its a bad thing... hell, some of the best rock music ever made comes from England... and I'm American.

 

I didn't mean any disrespect when I said it, either. I don't see anything wrong with perfecting things.

 

A good example is the Nissan Titan truck. It's produced in America, with the help of some of the Japanese Nissan engineers and designers. They looked at all the American full-size trucks, figured out what the people didn't like about them... and what they did like about them. Then they incorporated everything they'd learned into building one of the best full-size trucks ever made. Nobody can deny, its a great truck.

 

To see the die-hard Ford owners at the Nissan dealer makes me laugh... but it makes for great competition. This means Ford will have to improve the hell out of their trucks to hold onto those who could stray towards a better truck made by a "foreign" company. (funny, its built in AMERICA, not Mexico like so-called "domestics")

[wheelman]

Again, this discussion is pointless and no opinions will be changed.

JohnC is right in this statement!!! This is basically a religious discussion based on personal view points and opinions.

 

The basic idea of internal combustion has not changed and all available configurations have been tried at one point or another.

 

2 things have changed though:

1. Our ability to manufacture any given engine to specified tolerances.

The processes used in manufacturing have improved which enhances quality control (QC). QC is a function of cost which means only the amount of required QC will go into a given product. The Japanese put more QC into a product which generally means it's manufactured to higher tolerances there by making it more reliable (very broad generalization!!!!).

2. Electronic control systems.

The last 2 - 3 decades have seen more electronic control systems incorporated into our cars. The Japanese adopted these systems earlier than other manufactures there by improving the reliability of thier product over others. Again this is a cost issue.

 

The arguement that Japanese engineers are more talented is not only unprovable but demonstrates a total lack a rational thought regarding this subject. Can their engineers out design ours????? Well maybe my dad can lick yours and maybe he can't but it's the same arguement, pointless and proves nothing.

 

Edit: I can't believe I just added another post to this, and a long one at that.

 

Wheelman

[Michael]

Returning to the original theme in this thread...

 

1. As engine displacement increases, hp/L tends to decrease – regardless of what it says on the name badge. It’s a basic consequence of things like flame-front travel, filling and emptying the combustion chamber, piston speed for a given rpm, and so forth. For example, engines in the sub-cubic-inch displacement category, for radio-controlled model airplanes, easily make 2 hp/in^3 (4-strokes) and can reach 6 ph/in^3 (2-strokes) n/a. At the opposite extreme, consider the large marine engines (battleships, tankers) – they probably make less than 0.1 hp/in^3. So, it stands to reason that a 7L V8 would have a lower hp/displacement ratio than a 2.0L I4.

 

2. European (and probably Japanese) driving is more suited to high-hp driving, deemphasizing low-end torque, whereas American driving is the opposite. My recent driving experience in Germany was quite eye-opening. In-town, streets are narrow, crowded, and winding. Traffic patterns are difficult to navigate, and favor the convenience of pedestrians and public transportation, not motorists. There isn’t much opportunity to gun the engine from a standing-start, so low-end torque is of limited use. But on the highways I was cruising along at a steady 200 km/h, with the engine at something like 5000 rpm. In the U.S., the streets – urban, suburban, rural – were built for cars, not people or busses. Low-end torque is important to accelerate, to pass one’s fellow motorists, to get from stoplight to stoplight. But our highways theoretically top out at 65 mph. Well, the point is that small-displacement engines can do quite OK for high-end hp, at the expense of low-end torque. But cubic inches are hard to beat for n/a low-end torque. The choice of engine architecture – high-winding small-displacement vs. lower-rpm large-displacement – has much to do with the respective driving style in the market where the car was produced.

 

What surprises me is that European and Asian manufacturers have only recently started designing cars specifically for the U.S. market. True, Toyotas, Nissans etc. destined for U.S. import were always a bit different from their domestic-market brethren, but the differences were relatively minor. It’s only in the past 10 years or so that Camry’s have had about the same engine displacements as Tauruses. The typical 80’s and early-90’s imported family sedan had a 2-2.5L 4-cylinder, vs. its American counterpart’s 3-3.8L V6. This disparity still sticks in our memory, despite is relative disappearance in recent years.