Guest Speaker Posted December 1, 2000 Share Posted December 1, 2000 is it cheaper and/or more worth my while to either purchase a motor already built and tested from someone like badasscars.com? or purchase a block and build the engine myself? i want to have a solid motor and make about 400-450rwhp... now the motor i was looking at over there at badasscars.com was a chevy 350 making 450bhp... the guy there totally customizes everything and i could stroke that same exact motor to 383 and make well over 450bhp.. somewhere in the neighborhood of 500-550hp i'd figure (from all the dynos i've seen) would it be cheaper to make the motor myself? should i buy that book about hotrodding chevy motors? ------------------ ------------------------ looking at a 240Z V8 conversion project Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted December 2, 2000 Share Posted December 2, 2000 Really depends on your mechanical abilities. Have you built engines before? Do you have the equipment to properly measure and assemble a performance engine? Do you have the time and patience to put it together? These days built long block 383's and larger or destroked small-blocks are being sold for decent prices as are crate performance Chevy engines. Just have to weight your abilities and budget IMHO. Respectfully, Lone Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpeedRacer Posted December 2, 2000 Share Posted December 2, 2000 Yup, I agree with lonerider that a lot depends on your mechanical abilities. If you are interested in Chevy crate motore (with a factory warranty BTW) here some info http://www.bgcperformanceparts.com/default2.cfm I would recommend that you keep it light and use the JTR method to install it. Good luck - you are gonna' love it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Modern Motorsports Ltd Posted December 3, 2000 Share Posted December 3, 2000 quote: Originally posted by Speaker: is it cheaper and/or more worth my while to either purchase a motor already built and tested from someone like badasscars.com? or purchase a block and build the engine myself? I've put together the topends on my last two motors and found that quite straightforward/satisfying. Shortblocks can be had for v. fair price whether new or from a trusted source. Do you plan on all the other mods to plant 450rwhp as well? Reason I ask is you can IMO build a motor easily to do up to 325 rwhp with a 350 sbc rollerized. Stepping to that next power level IMO is a very different motor in terms of attitude but can be built later on your original foundation. Either way I've quite enjoyed assembling my topends (heads/valve springs, rockers/geometry/intakes/cam swaps etc) and it takes a minimum of tools as well. So if you have the interest go for it. Nice thing with sbc's is you can often get practically new parts from drag racers perfect for your own use at 1/2 price or less occasionally. This really cuts down overall cost. Got my 350 shortblock w/ new roller lifters for ~$400US with <16k km's on it in wicked shape. Then set of new roller mixed top notch rockers $150 (260+new, gold race and chromoly). ZZ4 cam new $50 ($250 new). Intake $100 ($150+new). etc etc, even used roller cams are often in as new shape which an inspection will show. Just some ideers.. Ross (more bargains allows more building!) C ------------------ Of all the things I've lost, I miss my mind the most. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Speaker Posted December 3, 2000 Share Posted December 3, 2000 cool man... SBC? its a dumbass question but what does SBC stand for? yeah i plan on doing everything needed for 450rwhp... i've been reading up on motors in general recently and i've read about the different tricks you can perform to get more hp, etc... its really really interesting... btw: Ozzy is cool love the quote ------------------ ------------------------ looking at a 240Z V8 conversion project [This message has been edited by Speaker (edited December 03, 2000).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pauli Posted December 3, 2000 Share Posted December 3, 2000 Small Block Chevy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikelly Posted December 4, 2000 Share Posted December 4, 2000 I'm a big time crate motor fan... Good reason: There is a member on this board who built his motor based on my project, and they used 6 inch rods instead of 5.7 rods... Guy is a mechanic by trade, but I think he usually does OEM work. While clearancing the block for the rods he went a little thin on #5 cyl... Motor ran for 1 hour before a nice big milkshake was made in the oil pan... I have spoken to this guy a number of times and I think he is VERY capable. The problem you run into with custom combinations is that if you don't do them EVERY DAY for a living (Like the crate builders do) you will miss some of the little tricks of the trade that make great gaines in power and reliability. I have built a number of motors in my day, and throwing together a Chevy is about as easy as it gets. However, I didn't want the headache and stress of building my motor, swapping out my electrical system, upgrading to an aluminum radiator, cutting out the rear for a fuel cell, wiring in new gages, plumbing the cell, sorting out a T56, and fixing a battery box rust problem, all while I was sorting out the head/ cam combo, rods, compression...Yadayadayada. I think converting a Z for the 1st time is a huge undertaking, make it as simple on yourself as possible.. When I bought my 383 crate motor I priced all the parts for the build and I would have saved $600 on the build sheet. However, that wouldn't have gotten me to completion... machining the heads and intake, painting the internal side of the block, screening the oil ports, assembly, degreeing the cam... and I don't do it every day. Now, there is another member here on this site who assembled a 351W and forgot to remove a grease rag when he sat the heads down on the block and bolted them on... Sounds dumb doesn't it... Or does it.. How many times will you get interupted while trying to do everything yourself.. how many EXPENSIVE mistakes will you make? Do you even have the right tools? The crate builders have made it so cost effective to buy their product complete and they now offer warranties... You won't get that from building it yourself. I know, I know, nothing like put one together yourself, but there are so many other areas that will need your attention... Just my .02! Mike ------------------ "I will not be a spectator in the sport of life!" mjk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pparaska Posted December 4, 2000 Share Posted December 4, 2000 First, let me describe myself in this area: I'm an incredibly picky do-it-yourselfer. Yes, I built my own motor. I've done a half dozen SBC's and a half dozen other rebuilds/build ups in my life, so it was no biggie for me to decide. But that was before the recent (last 5 years or so) popularity of buying a crate motor. Having an expert build your motor and then having that warrantee is definitely worth considering. I'd most likely buy a crate motor if I were to do another engine. Then again, if I did buy a crate from Chevy, I'd pull the darned thing apart and check everything out anyway. They are built on a factory line you know. And tearing down a SBC is simple as pie. I do possess or have access to the tools to measure everything though. And I wouldn't be beyond taking parts to the machine shop if something wasn't to my liking (bringing down the variation in deck heights, etc.). I'd also probably swap in gapless or custom gapped rings as well. Not that these little changes would produce much power, but I'm just real picky about things mechanical. I'm sure it would almost always be a waste to tear down a crate motor, I'm just picky. I vote for the crate motor. Beck racing engines, GM, lots of others. ------------------ Pete Paraska - 73 540Z - Marathon Z Project - pparaska@home.com">pparaska@home.com - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikelly Posted December 4, 2000 Share Posted December 4, 2000 Yup, I hear ya, but what is cool about some of these crate builders, they aren't assembly lining them... Bow Tie, Speedamotive, American Speed, Beck Racing, those guys let you pick the parts.. My motor came with Zgap rings, ARP Wavelock studs and bolt kit, roller hybraulic valve train, aluminum heads and intake, ported and matched, all the top shelf stuff... $3800 from intake to oilpan... Jim (BLKMGK) just had a 383 with forged pisonts and rods built for $4700 complete and his is internally balanced! You simply can't beat their deals now days, making it much easier to do a swap! Mike ------------------ "I will not be a spectator in the sport of life!" mjk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Speaker Posted December 5, 2000 Share Posted December 5, 2000 well over at badasscars.com the guy is telling me around $4700 for an internally balanced 383... forged bottom end (cept for crank) good heads, cam, etc, etc... roller rockers, lifters, holley vacuum secondary carb, intake manifold, etc, plugs, wires, distributor and everything on it... and its not a crate motor; he rails on those things; says they can't withstand high horsepower... but he gives a warranty on his even if they're raced... as long as care is taken in using them... and he was talking about 450rwhp built strong... and he said he could easily get more out of it... but it suffers reliability ------------------ ------------------------ looking at a 240Z V8 conversion project [This message has been edited by Speaker (edited December 05, 2000).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikelly Posted December 6, 2000 Share Posted December 6, 2000 OK lets clarify here what a crate motor really is... The magazines have really hosed up this term.. Crate motors are generally termed in reference to a factory built unit from GM, FORD, MOPAR... Specialty builders who also offer the service of providing a complete package are now being lumped into the same category but don't be fooled, American Speed, Speedomotive, Bow Tie, and others are not building assemblyline motors. The two I reference above are not assembly line built. WE spec'ed the parts that went into the motor and gave all the data on the application. For me personally I spoke with Ed Isky Jr. about my cam grind and what I wanted out of the motor. I made certain the builder knew what the intended use of the motor was and where I would spend most of my time and at what RPMS.. That is really key. Make sure you get a plan together and then stick with it. Write down everything you tell the builder, and make him send you a build sheet ahead of time so you remember 6-8 weeks later just exactly what you bought and make sure that build sheet reflects ther build sheet you get with the motor. Believe me, once you start doing research, you'll forget what rocker ratio you decided on, what size the valves are, straight or angle plug heads, and all sorts of other stuff motor related. Sounds like that guy gave you a good price... check his reputation and shop his build sheet around. If it checks out GO FOR IT! Mike ------------------ "I will not be a spectator in the sport of life!" mjk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLKMGK Posted December 7, 2000 Share Posted December 7, 2000 Umm, it wasn't a "grease rag" - it was an old pair of cotton underwear used to mop up some coolant while the headgaskets were being changed - not that I know the guy or anything. The rag was pulled from the cylinder using a pair of forceps - lot's of LITTLE pieces (ahem). Yeah, he felt pretty stupid and catches crap about it from friends to this day. Live and learn! If you can find someone to build a stout motor for $4700 and like the deal - go for it. My motor had no distributor or carb but that price included shipping, a forged crank, Eagle rods, and forged pistons. Not a roller cam but the rockers are roller. IT was hand built by an engine builder who knows his stuff and builds motors every single day. Pete's run the numbers and I should hit about 425hp - a little less than I'd hoped. Oh yeah - that $4700 doesn't include the $250 special flywheel from Centerforce either. What I didn't know and what the engine builder found out the hard way was that the Eagle one piece cranks use the "normal" flywheels instead of the ones used on one-piece blocks OEM. So much for my saving money getting the stock flywheel with my trans. To the builders credit - they tracked down the Centerforce flywheel and sold it to me at their cost. They were very apologetic for not knowing about this beforehand but it was ME that specced the one piece deal so I feel I'm to blame. Builder was Keith Craft - they mostly build Ford stuff but a 350 SBC destined for their shop truck with my specs made 425 on their dyno. I asked for 450hp and I have no doubt they built it "right". If I were doing it over again I'd have used a 2piece block and seriously have considered a 406 Honestly, look hard at the ZZ4 and the "ZZ5" that comes with the hot heads etc. Yeah, it's not a 383 and it's got Hyperutectic pistons but it's got a roller cam, distributor, and water pump. It also makes more than 350hp! You might have to replace the dampner. You probably won't have to wait weeks for it either and it's got a warranty. That sucker is pretty much plug and play. I've heard some remarks about OEM crate motors to the effect that they're built on an assembly line yadda yadda (mostly by friends) as if this was a bad thing. Note that motors in all cars today are done this way and hit 100K pretty often. On the flip side - my friend's shop has seen brand new parts from Ford (motors), TFS (heads), and other name brand places show up put together wrong or just plain defective. I doubt that Chevy is any better. So, no matter what there's some risk. If I had to do it all over again I'd probably look closer at the ZZ4 but since my motor could very well end up with a blower I'm glad I didn't end up with the hyperutectic pistons Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikelly Posted December 8, 2000 Share Posted December 8, 2000 Well I was trying to protect the honor of the person who left the underoos in the motor JIM!!!!! Anyway, just pulled up Petes Dynosheet on your motor and it was 390hp, not 425hp, which is still nothing to sneeze at! I'd have to agree though, the ZZ4 ZZ5 motors are a tremendous bargain. And remember that all that forged stuff you pay these custom builders for is not really needed unless oyu are gonna make 600+ HP and are spraying tons of nitros or supercharging it. My builder could have sold me a complete forged bottom end, but advised me otherwise based on my application. His words to me were that he'd rather see me spend the money where was getting the biggest bang for the buck. And as my Buddy Chris has found out in his research, be careful when shopping for forged parts... Lots of that stuff is designed for short spans at high RPMs. That makes great pieces for drag racing, but sucks if you plan to go to a road course and do laps continually at high RPMS! My builder spec'ed the bottom end with LT1 rods that were race prepped, used a scatt crank and hyper pistons. I made certain I wasn't gonna spray nitrous and no forced induction would see that motor. Instead, we spent the money on the induction. Full roller hydraulic valvetrain, nice heads and intake, and all the right parts to make the motor bomb proof.. Zgap rings, Clevite bearings, Mellings pump Cloyes TR timing chain, and ARP everywhere! Bottom line is do your research, make a plan, communicate that plan to the builder, and stick to that plan! Mike ------------------ "I will not be a spectator in the sport of life!" mjk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pauli Posted December 9, 2000 Share Posted December 9, 2000 http://corvetteforum.com/ubb/Forum13/HTML/004232.html something to think about, ls1 for 3500. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLKMGK Posted December 11, 2000 Share Posted December 11, 2000 The LS1 is a whole 'nuther animal - be careful about trying to stuff one of those in! Hrm, I do seem to recall one of the sheets Pete did as coming up with 425HP. No matter - they did the same combo to a 350 and the dyno showed 425horse so I don't think a 383 will be worse. Anyway, I did choose forged stuff. I wanted the added piece of mind and I may very well spray of put a blower on mine - I just don't know yet and don't want to have to redo it. Sine we talked about GM "crate motors" - the ZZ4 and Fast Burn motors DO use forged cranks and th ePM rods they have are actually stonger than th eold "pink" rods that GM used to use - they just aren't as rebuildable is all. They ARE cheaper though so replacing them shouldn't be a biggie. Obviously there's lot's of opinions on how to go about building a motor. If you goto three engine builders they will give you three opinions on how to get where you want to be. GM will also sell you a motor that makes a dyno verified number too. (shrug) There's no one best way to get where you want to go in this game I'm afraid... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted December 11, 2000 Share Posted December 11, 2000 i geuss what i ment to say is the best bang for the buck... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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