Guest Anonymous Posted December 29, 2000 Share Posted December 29, 2000 Interesting V-8 thread on Zcar.com. Check it out. Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted December 29, 2000 Share Posted December 29, 2000 Hey Lone, Preach on brother, I'm with you. Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MYRON Posted December 30, 2000 Share Posted December 30, 2000 If they are bragging about an L6 bottom end being able to go 200,000 miles why did the L6 go out of production after about a 15 year run rate? The small block chevy has been in production for what 40 years or more? and is still going strong. Same with a big block chevy. Hell the latest BBC(454) outperforms the ford hi-tech triton V-10 hands down in every test.. I have had more problems with the L6 than any other motor that I have owned.. The L6 was a great performer in the z car, 170 hp was pretty good in the late 70's on an emmision controlled vehicle. I am just saying that if it(L6) was the greatest thing since sliced bread it would still be in production.. And what about the rumors about the 2003 Z car?? I know that it is not going to have an inline 6..... I dont discriminate against the L6, I like all Z cars no matter what powers them. I just get aggrevated when someone "disses" a low tech V8.. I got 3 words for them "JUST BRING IT"... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLKMGK Posted December 30, 2000 Share Posted December 30, 2000 I haven't read the thread yet (anyone got a link?) but I have to chuckle. I like cars that are fun to drive and have good HP. I've been into Fords for years and have owned an '88 5.0 since it was new. However we have an Impalla SS in the family that runs pretty good, now a Mazda rotary that makes scary power from just 1.3liters, and my Z is getting a SBC. The original motor was okay but I knew from day one that it wasn't going to cut it and that making big power from it would be way expensive. I wanted six speeds and enough power to punish almost anything that pulls up. I could've done a Ford motor for less but I'm not bigoted and the SBC swap was best documented so that's what I'm doing. (shrug) Why is it such a big deal to put a motor in a car that wasn't originally in there? I'll admit to getting a little queasy when I see a SBC in a Mustang but only because they had to yank a decent motor to get it in there. And even if it makes me queasy I don't get nasty with the person who's done it - it's THWIR car not mine! In the case of the L6 there was no way I'd get 450hp from it short of a rocket booster. Why can't these clowns understand that?! 300hp isn't enough for me and I'd be shocked if any of them could get that much and keep it together.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted December 30, 2000 Share Posted December 30, 2000 Here is link http://zcar.com/forums/read.php?f=4&i=12982&t=12982 Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted December 30, 2000 Share Posted December 30, 2000 I'm glad I hang out over here... I checked out the thread, what I saw IMHO was the same old mis-informed dribble that always gets thrown around between the Lxx Z Purist (those who believe that anything non Nissan engined is blaspheme) and V8 guys (and other domestic and import engines) who are not affraid to get out of the box a bit and swap something else in for the sake of having something different and expressing the personality of the person owning the car. I have no problem with anyone loving the original Z design, its a damn good one. But I get a bit tired of the: 1) 'Big A$$ heavy old American V8' sterotype that gets thrown around. (with appropriate parts, usually lighter or the same and set back for better weight distribution.) 2) 'The Nissan is superior because it gets 200,000 miles out of the bottom end.' well, guess what, times have changed, if a person changes they're oil you can get the same from a injected American V8 these days. (On soap box) I may be stepping into a big cow pie here, but you know I think we're heading into a bad place around here recently talking about which engine is better. One engines design might be slighty better, but they all fall under the laws of physics and if you twist they're tail to hard, to many times, it will come off. Appreciate the differences of our rides and each persons different interpretation of what makes a killer Z, otherwise we'd all be driving basically cloned Zcars (much like alot of the Harley guys are doing now (same HD accessories, different color).. sigh...). (Off soapbox) Respectfully, Lone Ps: Mark, this tirade wasn't aimed at you, I'm just venting and giving an opinion. (handshake) [This message has been edited by lonehdrider (edited December 29, 2000).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted December 30, 2000 Share Posted December 30, 2000 Hell, let them say what they want. Correct them after you race them and beat them by an embarassing margin It's right up there with honda dorks yapping about how their engine makes 2873487234 hp/liter, so it's obviously a better engine. They whine funny when they lose too! ------------------ Morgan http://z31.com/~morgan/s30 http://carfiche.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MistaFosta Posted December 30, 2000 Share Posted December 30, 2000 And I have to say.... The article by Chris on that subject brough tears to my eyes. Absolutely Perfectly said. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted December 30, 2000 Share Posted December 30, 2000 Guys, I have got to tell you that there is some dangerous banter going on here. Z car is terrible about the L6 vs V8 topic but we have got to stop here. An L6 Z and a V8 Z are two different cars - period. Kind of like a 4 cylinder camaro and an IROC or a Hertz rental Ford Mustang versus the COBRA. There is no comparison. We know it, so why talk about it? OTOH, why should a V8 Z owner brag about beating an L6? Or constantly use "I'll blow your doors" as "fightin' words" when arguing with someone who is ignorant enough to think V8 cars are blasphemy? Let's drop it and not even dignify that crap with a response. We will be baited as more people find this board. I say we just kick their butt off the list for that crap Now, to those who ask where I stand: I want to own two Z cars - one with a V8 and the other an L6. Seriously! Craig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikelly Posted December 30, 2000 Share Posted December 30, 2000 Just typed up my own "opinion" on the subject... Mike ------------------ http://hometown.aol.com/dat74z/myhomepage/auto.html "I will not be a spectator in the sport of life!" mjk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted December 30, 2000 Share Posted December 30, 2000 Mikelly: Well written, I think the message was exactly what was needed, a clarification of our 'position' so to speak and spoke from someone who has been on both sides of the fence as it were. Lone Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Fast Frog Posted January 2, 2001 Share Posted January 2, 2001 Ditto Mikelly: I did a response regarding the so call "heavy 'ol worn out American iron" weight flap. Hopefully, some of them can still read and comprehend; and IQ,s haven't dropped too much since many of us who were once zcar.com addicts have left and opted for the more "intellectually" stimulating hybridz action. [This message has been edited by Fast Frog (edited January 02, 2001).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clint78z Posted January 2, 2001 Share Posted January 2, 2001 Well I like to put a little note in, I like both motors . There are people that like to compare apples and oranges . I have worked on both motors and have drawn some conclusions . 350 Just plain works over 40 years of engine building experience Good low end torque Decent revabilty Good gas milage Cheap to do Lots of aftermarket parts It downright kicks booty in a Z L6 A sweet little motor for its size Almost indestructable bottom end A nice power curve A little more rpm Can be very potent as a turbo motor It sounds awsome One reason I like the L6 build up is that it will re-educate alot of narrow minded people that think their motor is the only way to go . For example Honda guys that think all others are crap, ford, chev ... etc. Myron one reason nissan dropped the L6 is to go to better motor VG30DETT, VQ35DE, RB26DETT . Yes Fotds V10 should have some more power, but it is a new motor and I see alot of room for improvement, but they did get 20% better gas milage than the 454 . There are people that no matter what you tell them, they are complete;ey brainwashed . Educate the ones you can, and ignore the others !! Building my heavy ass L6, and will enjoy it in the summer !! [This message has been edited by clint78z (edited January 02, 2001).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted January 2, 2001 Share Posted January 2, 2001 To be fair, people tend to forget that GM has made major changes to the chevy SB what 3 or 4 times now? Most of the stuff is still backwards compatable, but there are exceptions and I would suspect they'll be more and more exceptions as the life of that engine family plays out. But no argument, it was and is still a great design. Also, the L2x family gave way (or perhaps it was a lateral evolution) to the more modern RB26DETT (which I would take in a heartbeat if it wasn't so darn expensive to get here). Going back further, if you look at the Z in general, its arguably obvious the Z designers studied English sport cars quite a bit, the engine is a inline 6 like the Jag and Austin Healey 3000 was (Except its more reliable and has marginally better electrics), the SU's, even the shape, while more square, it is definately XKE'ish. I like to refer to mine as my Japanese Jag. As Clint said, Apples and Oranges. Some just can't appreciate the taste of a apple in an orange skin.. (slight joke, you know how Datsun made a zillion Z's in what I call CalTrans (<--insert your states highway workers name here) Orange (I own one in that color for now...). Its one of those discussions that don't have a answer, just alot of emotion either way of which I'm guilty as the next. Regards, Lone Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpeedRacer Posted January 3, 2001 Share Posted January 3, 2001 Yup, Datsun's Mr. Yoshida admittedly tried to copy much of the European GT shape of Jaguar, Maserati and Ferrari BUT the father of the Z car Mr. K (Yutaka Katayama) wanted a V6 in it. Since they lost out on the Yamaha 2.0 litre twin cam to Toyota (for the 2000 GT) Datsun was not about to expend the money on a whole new engine design. So they simply added two more cylinders onto their beefy little (1.6 litre) but excellently designed four cylinder motor from the 510. The 510's motor was already being raced and had proven to be very robust and quick. So the V6 wasn't to come out till many years later but in the end Mr. K was right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drax240z Posted January 3, 2001 Share Posted January 3, 2001 I'm not going to enter into an arguement. I just want to make a couple points that have been overlooked. Myron, the reason as far as I know that the inline 6 isn't more prevelent these days it twofold. ONE: It simply costs more to produce a 3.0L I-6 than it does a 3.0L V-6. The V design uses less material overall. TWO: Front wheel drive. With so many vehicles becoming front wheel drive, you see the death of the inline 6. Companies want engines that are short (ie: v6) so they can put them in either FWD or RWD vehicles. If you look at the revisions in the nissan line in 1984, they went to a 3L V6, which found its way into both front and rear wheel drive vehicles. The inline 6 is quite simply a great engine layout. BMW and mercedes still think so. The problem is $$$$ and thats why you're only seeing them in high $$$ cars now. No offence intended towards the 8's, I like them for what they are good at. As many people here have said, apples and oranges. ------------------ "Gimme Fuel, Gimme Fire, Gimme that which I desire" -Metallica Drax240z 1972 240z - L28TURBO transplant on the way! http://members.xoom.com/r_lewis/datsun.html http://members.home.net/drax77/newpage.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted January 3, 2001 Share Posted January 3, 2001 I think we've been over this before, but it's nonetheless interesting - I-6, flat-6, and 60deg v12 are the only engine configurations with 12 or fewer cyclinders that are perfectly balanced in all harmonics. That's why ferrari uses 60deg v12s, porsche uses flat 6s, and tons of companies use I-6s. Obviously none of these 3 configurations are very good in packaging terms of modern cars with the RWD exception of an I-6. The reason small block chevy(and ford and all the domestic variants) are still made is because they are engrained in support, design, and tradition. If GM drastically changes the basic SBC engine, over 1/2 of their cars will have to be changed as well, as well as tooling, assembly, support, etc. for tens of millions of cars a year. Plus pushrod engines have fewer parts(1 cam, 8 valves, etc, etc.) than most modern 4 bangers, so they're cheap to assemble. And they don't have to invest vast sums of money into engine r&d like honda and company do. The basic pushrod v8 design is being streched to meet modern standards, which is the major reason you're seeing fancier and fancier pushrod V8 engines(lt1 and now the ls1). Everything has an ultimate limit, and I think the pushrod design is approaching its limits in emissions and efficiency. Ford has already greatly decreased pushrod v8 use - can you even get a ford car with a pushrod v8 anymore? ------------------ Morgan http://z31.com/~morgan/s30 http://carfiche.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pauli Posted January 3, 2001 Share Posted January 3, 2001 i believe the 5.0 in explorers is still pushrod. next year it'll be the basic sohc 4.6 though. (one odd thing is that last time i saw dyno charts, the sohc fords have better low end torque than the ohv gms... odd reversal) i got into the discussion about what's balanced and what's not somewhere else... i believe it was decided that i6, h6, v8, v12, h12, and maybe i8 are all inherently balanced designs. a 72 degree v10 should be balanced, too. i seem to remember reading somewhere that the ls1 (and therefore also the vortec 5300 and 6000) have nothing in common with the original small block other than the bore centers. wrt to changeover costs if gm were to abandon the sbc: if you stick to cars and exclude trucks, they've only sold a total of 100,000 corvettes and f-bodies this year (not counting dec), and that includes v6's. not that big of a problem. but you're right, they've got a big investment and they aren't likely to abandon the design. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MYRON Posted January 3, 2001 Share Posted January 3, 2001 I dont think that GM will abandon the sbc for some time. They did decrease the displacement down to 5.3 liters though. In Texes there are more trucks and suvs than cars on the road. The market is huge for larger vehicles. I cant imagine GM trying to power a FULL size SUV or Z-71 truck with a V6. There is just not enough torgue. Yes you can turbo/supercharge a 6 to do the job but you then decrease reliability and increase cost.. So who is going to do the researce about what is going to power the 2003 Z car?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pauli Posted January 3, 2001 Share Posted January 3, 2001 vq35de for the 350z. hanging out on fresh alloy can be helpful sometimes now as long as the latest picture isn't what it will look like... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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