Guest scca Posted December 1, 2000 Share Posted December 1, 2000 Mikelly & others: i was working on a car yesterday and have a question.. since the a-arm is mounted on the same axis/parellogram(sort of) with the rack will adjusting the car for camber via a a-arm cause the toe settings to change? you are moving the knuckle with the tie rod end as you change the camber.. given the example that a car is at .25- camber and you want to change it to 1.5- for a event you are widening the bottom in back of the tie rods andthat would effectively give you more toe-in.. when using camber plates this doesnt happen. as the change doesnt affect the steering at all. so is this correct or ? or will the change be neglible? i understand wanting to change camber for a event but if moving the a-arm means changing the toe setting is that a good thing to do? ------------------ Mike mike@fonebooth.com http://www.fonebooth.com/brakes.html raceparts and brake upgrades. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pparaska Posted December 1, 2000 Share Posted December 1, 2000 quote: Originally posted by scca: Mikelly & others: i was working on a car yesterday and have a question.. since the a-arm is mounted on the same axis/parellogram(sort of) with the rack will adjusting the car for camber via a a-arm cause the toe settings to change? Most definitely. And definitely a drawback for the reasons you stated. If you change the camber with the adjustable arm, you will change the toe, and it will be an appreciable amount. I thought this was understood. But maybe it's not such a big deal. You could do two alignment setups for two different A-arm lengths to get street and auto-x camber settings, and do the toe settings for each. Do the street first on the alignment machine, change the camber with the a-arm and make note of the exact number of turns and direction to turn each toe adjuster to get the toe where you want it. You probably want the toe different on each setup anyway. Then you'd know how many turns to crank the A-arms and the toe adjusters to go from one to the other. BTW, there's another benefit to having the A-arm length adjustable. If you are going to go for the optimum bumpsteer curve (not sure this is really needed by most), the tie rods and a-arms need to be the same length, pivot to pivot. Having both adjustable gives you this control. Of course, to be able to get everything to fall into place (camber, toe, bumpsteer) is a huge juggling act, and some combiniations are not possible, since the A-arm pivots are usually fixed. (I made mine adjustable, independently, for vertical and lateral position - I love things to be adjustable.) ------------------ Pete Paraska - 73 540Z - Marathon Z Project - pparaska@home.com">pparaska@home.com - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest scca Posted December 1, 2000 Share Posted December 1, 2000 i think the a-arms should definintely be adjustable.. but more as a way to get rid of the inner pivot. also with a heim you can crank the caster into the a-arm which you cannot do with a bushing as it wont allow the movement forwards. caster is something i havent noticed mentioned yet. (or i missed it). i think if someone is that serious about adjusting camber for a event they should buy camber plates. i know I'M too lazy to want to crawl under the car to change the camber and then have to do a toe adj. ------------------ Mike mike@fonebooth.com http://www.fonebooth.com/brakes.html raceparts and brake upgrades. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikelly Posted December 1, 2000 Share Posted December 1, 2000 Yup, as Pete said, it does, which means you have to preset and mark both your camber and toe settings so they can be set appropriately for both the tie rod ends and your camber settings... Stay tuned as I think I'll have something available for toe adjustment as well... Chris and I should be in business soon, real soon! Some of the stock came in today and we have finished our jig and are starting some mock ups... Mike ------------------ "I will not be a spectator in the sport of life!" mjk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest scca Posted December 2, 2000 Share Posted December 2, 2000 now what happens when you go to a different track? or the configuration of the solo event changes? i ran 5 different venues last year and each one had different camber settings. now with roadracing this may be more critical but if i did 2 different slaloms the settings will likely be different if one has more LH vs. RH compared to the other course.. MIke Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted December 2, 2000 Share Posted December 2, 2000 Mike, I don't quite understand what you are getting at...are you saying that it would be better to just use the stock settings with a non-adjustable control arm? Or, are you saying that it would be better to use caster/camber plates? I realize what you are saying about being "too lazy" to crawl under the vehicle to adjust the arms then have to adjust the toe, but, if one is serious enough about their racing/autocrossing it seems like a small price to pay to have the adjustability. One of the advantages of the control arms Mike Kelly and I have designed is the fact that they don't have to be taken loose from the car. When Pete was over last Friday he made the comment that he likes for things to be easy regarding parts such as this and made some key suggestions. So, that was one of our goals in designing our control arms - make it easy. I know that I would not want to have to unbolt the control arms from the crossmember everytime I wanted to make an adjustment, I guess I am that lazy. By not having to take them loose from the car it will be MUCH easier and like Pete said, simply mark your original toe adjustment. Chris [This message has been edited by Chris (edited December 01, 2000).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikelly Posted December 2, 2000 Share Posted December 2, 2000 Another thing these control arms will give is a price break in the 'ole pocket book. With the control arms SCCA and I currently have, It cost me over $100 the last time for a front wheel alignment due to the time it took to pull the inner bolt out on each arm every time the guy was fine tuning the setting... WOuld have been much much easier and cost me less! That means every time you take your car in with the new ones we are designing, you would actually save money over the old design.. Mike ------------------ "I will not be a spectator in the sport of life!" mjk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest scca Posted December 2, 2000 Share Posted December 2, 2000 i guess i didnt make my prev post clear... i AGREE that heims are good for the lower a-arm and i AGREE that ones that are adjustable without removing from the car are better (in that respect) than the ones i make and similar ones that are on mikellys car. what i disagree with is that someone who "is that serious about autoxing or track days" should not be using the a-arm as the way to adjust camber--i change my camber for each track; in about 30 seconds- jack the car up and loosen 2 nuts and slide the strut.... no alignment needed. i put a digital camber guage on it and i'm done. what would i rather do spend 20 minutes changing camber and resetting toe or 30 seconds... hmmm since i'm so lazy thats a easy one IF someone was only doing one session once a year the a-arm would be adequate. or all the sessions are at the same track . lets see 20 minutes to change to race setup 20 minutes to change it back . do this 5 times a year and boy dont camber plates look better to me now! also if its a street car you would probably be lowering it with the coilovers (if you have them) and this complicates it again.... ------------------ Mike mike@fonebooth.com http://www.fonebooth.com/brakes.html raceparts and brake upgrades. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted December 2, 2000 Share Posted December 2, 2000 Mike, Well, I guess it all boils down to what each person wants... There are certainly points to be made for both sides, caster/camber plates or adjustable control arms. Myself, I don't really mind having to spend the additional time to use the adjustable control arms. It is the same type of setup we used with our racing go-karts and we had adjustable control arms on the the 510 race car and 240 race car when I worked at a Datsun high performance shop. So, maybe it just what you are used to using. There were caster/camber plates available way back then, we used to sell them, and we didn't use them on the race cars so there must be some advantage to using adjustable control arms. We raced at a few different tracks and one of the fellas in the shop used the 240 for autocross, I don't recall them adjusting the caster/camber every time we went to a different track. Like I said, I guess it is just what each person wants... Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest scca Posted December 2, 2000 Share Posted December 2, 2000 that suprises me that a shop would sell the product and not use it? if you have both a-arms and camberplates you can widen the track and adj camber.. and add more caster..do it all.. there is definitely a gain in time with the settings i change at each place i go. on top of that tires are so $$ now that i want to mamimize tire patch and get tire temps to their optimum and camber is the way to do that. ------------------ Mike mike@fonebooth.com http://www.fonebooth.com/brakes.html raceparts and brake upgrades. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted December 2, 2000 Share Posted December 2, 2000 Well, actually there were a great deal many parts we sold that we didn't use on the race cars. The race cars were not meant for promoting the business, but that is another story in and of itself. Maybe I am not understanding exactly what you are trying to say, as at first it seemed that you were saying that you did not like the adjustable control arms as a way to adjust camber due to the time it took to make the adjustments and the effects it had on the toe of the car, that you would prefer to use caster/camber plates for their convenience. Now it appears you are saying that you would prefer to use both in order to maximize contact patch, well if you are using the adjustable control arms in the process, does'nt that defeat the convenience purpose of caster/camber plates? Like I said, maybe I just don't understand. Maybe we are just going about semantics, as I certainly understand the conveniece you speak of regarding caster/camber plates, if we refered to control arms as "control arms with rod ends" instead of "adjustable" that would make more sense. With the "control arms with rod ends" you would be eliminating the bind in the bushing when adjusting caster, achieving all of your adjustment with the caster/camber plates and leaving the "control arms with rod ends" in a static position as to not effect toe adjustment. Correct? It just seemed that your last post was contradictory of the previous posts. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pparaska Posted December 3, 2000 Share Posted December 3, 2000 Mikelly, just wondering if the alignment shop ever mentioned that they could do a better job if the arm had a smoothly adjustable length that you'd have with the "turnbuckle" type arrangement on the arm we were discussing instead of the discrete length adjustments (every 1/2 turn) of the arms you have. Those threads looked pretty fine, so that might not ever be an issue. Just wanted to point out another possible advantage to a turnbuckle or left/right hand threaded adjustable arm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikelly Posted December 3, 2000 Share Posted December 3, 2000 The guy at the Shop indicated several things: A: My control arms are way trick! B: A real bitch to adjust C: Because of B, the price goes up D: Those aluminum bushings at the rear are junk and hard to adjust. E: Because of D and B the price goes up. Now, I propose that what SCCA says is true to a point. I think people will want these control arms for the hi tech "Cool" factor, and people will want the adjustability. If you are way serious about racing and change your settings week to week, plan to buy camber plates as well. However, as many will attest to, camber plates are noisy and not very "Street Friendly". If you are gonna run an agressive street setting and maybe change it a few times per year, then the control arms would be cheaper in the long run, because the shop wouldn't charge extra for removing the inner bolt and adjusting the heim joint constantly to get the right setup. My car was on the rack for almost 2 hours and I was helping the guy and he still charged me $100. He was gonna charge $200, but I helped him and educated him on those cheesy bushings in the rear... Again, I believe that the average Joe gear head doing the occassional Car guys track event or weekend autocross will absolutely want these control arms, and I know for a fact people will want the rears. We will be selling the whole kit in a package price to include a pair of adjustable TC mounts, front and rear adjustable control arms with Heim dust seals for a very reasonable price. We will also sell individual components. What I can promise is this: The kit will be much cheaper than the Arizona Zcar prices qouted, and quality will be very high, and we will be much more accessable than Dave at AZC. We may also sell coil over kits, minus springs.. I have a source for those components as well, so we'll see. I say minus the springs because guys can porder their own springs from any place and people have different preferences, I'd let the buyers acquire those themselves...But sleeves, collars and perches for $130-150 (Depending on the supplier) would allow guys to buy the components they need and shop around.. mix and match... That sort of thing.. Stay tuned for that. Once we have a production unit done, We will post them on Chris' website. Bottom line is We are making these control arms, and if they sell then we'll all know what Zcar guys want. If they don't sell, or if we get bad reviews here, then we will know that this wasn't the way to go. I have a chunk of change to invest in car ideas, this is only one of several. If this one hits a home run and we sell only 10 sets, then I met my goal. Its an experiment SCCA, we are testing a market, thats all. Next, lets all move over to the Body and paint forum, as I'm polling the populous on carbon fiber wishlists items... Mike Kelly Kelly Racing Ltd. ------------------ "I will not be a spectator in the sport of life!" mjk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evan Purple240zt Posted December 3, 2000 Share Posted December 3, 2000 Mike, i can tell you that im watching very closely what you are doing. These parts seem like a great way to set my car up. I have coilovers and am low enough where camber is a tad goofy. Since my bridgestone RE730s arent cheap id like to keep everything within spec. I have access to a hunter alignment shop during the school year for free. (I taught an auto class). Keep everyone updated guy! Thanks- Evan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted December 3, 2000 Share Posted December 3, 2000 It's cold here and I need some parts to tinker with. Can't wait on this kit. Keep us posted. Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest scca Posted December 3, 2000 Share Posted December 3, 2000 in the long run......cheaper? camber guages can be bought for $125 and toe plates for $50 if your paying $100+ for a alignment then you should consider the tools to do it yourself.. Chris. to clarify you re: my post. i dont use my a-arms to change camber at all. the heims are there for caster to prevent binding and the "ability" to widen track if i ever need to. yes if I was to only need to reset camber once they would be fine. as in a street car that needs a camber adjustment due to lowering. i am confused as to the race cars not being a product showcase.. if a product improves performance it should be on a race car to be competitive - assuming the rules allow it. the cars i run with GT3-GT4 Nasport ARE the fastest cars in the country - whoever wins the nasport west series will win the SCCA runoffs barring any problems. JOhn Olson won GT4 and another oregon competitor was 2nd on the grid. in GT3 the pole went to a car setup by a Nasport west person. i see what they use and what they dont and thats all i can attest to. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted December 4, 2000 Share Posted December 4, 2000 Mike, I don't recall what classes the guys at the shop ran the race cars in, that was over 15 years ago...I was low man at the shop and 17 at the time. I was more interested in girls, my 240, baseball and girls ... I worked on the race cars briefly from time to time, usually just before they were taken out for a weekend. The owner was getting into the kit car business, he was the person that developed a kit to transform Z cars into closed coupe Cobras, and I guess the race cars were put on the back burner. I remember the 510 sitting in one of the rooms covered in dust from bodywork for a couple of months. The owner was not into selling "fabricated" parts so I guess that is why he never sold his adjustable control arms, I guess that is the reason anyway as I was never in on the "business ends" of things. I agree with you that the race cars would have been an excellent venue to showcase the high performance parts that were for sale. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted December 4, 2000 Share Posted December 4, 2000 Where can you get camber plates for $150 or so? ------------------ Morgan http://z31.com/~morgan/s30 http://carfiche.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
randy 77zt Posted December 4, 2000 Share Posted December 4, 2000 i use my z for driver schools/open track events at sears point ,laguna seca and thunderhill.car has camber plates,coil overs,urathene bushings,modified front crossmember,four wheel disc brakes and more.i drive car to work 50 miles a day.if i ever build another z i willnot do this again.why-because it rattles on bumps-tire noise from the road comes into car from rear strut housing from camber plates.at i have some parts that were bought and removed that are laying around because thay did not work at the track.my car is aligned for track days by me on computor 4 wheel alinment rack-they let me use the rack at work since that is what i do.with camber plates you get little toe change on camber adjustment.the control arms with rod ends would be ok if you didnt have to remove the bolt they pivot on otherwise i dont see any advantage.the best control arms i have seen are the arms that simon in austraila made-easily adjustable and use oem or urathene busings.with these you could set a car up for track with out rattleing parts.i am going to copy the rear set and ditch the camber plates.camber plates are good for race cars though-fast adjustment with out jacking up car.probably the roads in australia arent as good so simon wanted to leave bushings in to make car last longer with less maintenence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest scca Posted December 4, 2000 Share Posted December 4, 2000 why wouldnt you put GC ones in the back then? if they dont rattle in the front... i have the carerra's all around and they arent that noisy but i used the oem bearing in the front and theoem rear rubber spacer in the rear ------------------ Mike mike@fonebooth.com http://www.fonebooth.com/brakes.html raceparts and brake upgrades. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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