jeromio Posted December 8, 2000 Share Posted December 8, 2000 I'm about to order new poly bushings for the rear. But, I have read several posts on zcar.com stating that the rear arms are so impossibly difficult to remove that it may not be worthwhile. So, should I order the $52 rear bush kit and try it myself anyway? Or save the money and a headache? I hate to tear everything apart and not be able to replace all the wear items. At least one poster mentioned just ordering new pins and then tearing the crap out of the old ones to get them out. How pricey are those pins? Do Mikelly et al have a rough idea of cost for the adjustable heim jointed rear arms. And a timeline? Those joints by themselves are probably over $30/each (times 4, right?) so it's probably out of my price range anyway. Also, on a related subject, http://www.suspension.com/nissancars.htm show a mustache bar bushing set, but no diff mount bushing. Doesn't the front of the diff rest on a piece of rubber that needs to be replaced? (My diff currently SLAMS into the frame when I downshift - scares the hell out of everyone who rides in the car - including me.) If so, anyone have a source for this part? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted December 8, 2000 Share Posted December 8, 2000 Jeromio I have had no problem with the rear arms, but my experience is limited (just the one time). Arizona Z cars has a Chromalloy rear arm kit with heim joints you might check them out. swap the rubber front diff mount for an aluminum mount Motorsports Auto offers them. Good Luck Krys ------------------ I may be OLD and I TRY to act like a lady, but I aint little and I aint from Pasadena and I don't drive no D--- Dodge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted December 9, 2000 Share Posted December 9, 2000 Having done the rears a couple times on a couple cars, it's not that bad if you take a couple precautions. First go to NAPA or somewhere else that sells brass drifts/punches/rods that are a bit smaller in diameter than the shaft. It's optional, but I'd also recommend buying a brass hammer for pounding it to the point that it's flush with the bushing sleeves, In my opinion that sucker has been about the best 20 bucks I've ever spent on a tool. (2lb variety) Obviously load that sucker up with your favorite penetrating oil as long in advance as you can. I'd also recommend getting a thread die the same thread pitch as the existing threaded ends. It's nearly impossible to remove the pins without banging the threads up a little and this will let you fix your screwed up threads. Be careful if it's sticking to not mushroom the head out of the pin to the point it won't fit through the hole. This is generally easier if there's no tension on the pin from the spring, so if you have some way of relieving that pressure such as with a compressor or by removing the whole assembly (your choice)Other than that it's just a simple matter of banging it out. Takes a while be prepared for that (unless you're one of those lucky souls who has a pin that's not rusted into place) When you put it back together I'd suggest putting some anti-seize on it to keep this from being a huge chore if for some reason you need to remove the pin in the future. (Also make sure you remove the little wedge bolt in the middle that holds it in place or you'll not get anywhere quick as well as want to smack yourself on the forehead when you figure out you forgot to remove it before trying to hammer the pin through. If I remember correctly those wedge pins are pretty weak on the threaded part so be careful removing it. Worst case should you bang one up too much to fix the threads, I believe they're only 25 dollars or thereabouts to replace (again this is a somewhat old rusty memory, so it may have changed.) Be ready to burn out the old bushings with a torch, smelly but not terribly difficult. Push the melted rubber and the inner sleeve out with a piece of broomstick or something. Then use a hacksaw to saw a notch through the outer bushing sleeve. You'll have to remove the blade and put it through the loop and then put the saw back together. When sawing you do *NOT* want to saw all the way through into the loop that is part of the control arm however though you'll probably nick it slightly somewhere with the saw. once you're all the way through the outer sleeve of the old bushing it will relieve the pressure it was held in the loop on the control arm with, and you can carefully tap it out with a screwdriver and a hammer. If you have a press available you can use that instead of this method I described of course. The moustache bar bushing set isn't a bad way to go, especially considering the play I've seen in some of them at junkyards (enough material gone to allow for about and inch of motion in any direction) but I'd advise you don't go with the solid metal one up front on a street driven car, they're extremely noisy (maybe something like dynamat on it would help so if anyone has experience in that speak up by all means) but the metal to metal transmits vibration right into the chassis where it is promptly amplified to the point of being painfully loud or at least that's how it was in my 240 when I had one in. I like the idea of the solid mount, but noisewise that thing is just friggin evil. I went about a month before just giving in and buying the factory replacement one. (50 dollars approximately) I really wish Energy Suspension would make a diff mount for the Z's like they do engine and tranny mounts for other stuff. Considering the fact that they make every other bushing for the Z it's a mystery to me why they don't sell those considering the crappy design of the stock one they'd make a killing on it. The Energy suspension mounts are nearly bulletproof and wouldn't transmit the noise nearly as much. Maybe if we got enough people to petition them to construct one they would. Anyway hope this helps you out, have fun working on it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pparaska Posted December 9, 2000 Share Posted December 9, 2000 Good Advice. I have a buddy who had a machinist at his work make a pivot pin driver out of tool steel just slightly smaller in diameter than the pin. He had it drilled and tapped on one end, to a depth greater than the threaded portion of the pin. Screw on the tool to the pivot pin, back up the inner sleeve of the opposite bushing (other end of pin) with a socket on a hard heavy surface (anvil) and wack away. Don't cut all the way through the outer sleeve when trying to remove that part. take a chisel and hammer and tap the outer sleeve toward the center of the hole and the thin steel remaining where you almost cut all the way through to the arm will tear. Then tap out the sleeve. The really cool thing would be a top mount. or a captured lower mount that is not as tall as the stock front mount. The height of the front mount causes the diff to have a severe nose up attitude and this aggrivates that u-joint angle problem on the driveshaft. See my site under "Driveline Mods" for my research into this area, if you're interested. Ron Tyler made a "top mount" for the front of the R200 in his V8Z. He emailed me details of it yesterday. I'll email him to see if it's o.k. to post here. This lets you be able to cut the center of the front diff crossmember out and lower the diff front to the desired height needed to lessen the nose-up attitude of the diff. ------------------ Pete Paraska - 73 540Z - Marathon Z Project pparaska@home.com Pete's V8 Datsun 240Z Pages [This message has been edited by pparaska (edited December 08, 2000).] [This message has been edited by pparaska (edited December 13, 2000).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted December 9, 2000 Share Posted December 9, 2000 Jeromio, Krys D, & Others, Mike and I are moving along on the adjustable control arms. As a matter of fact, I just got word this evening that the critical pieces for the front arms are finished at the machine shop and should be delivered Saturday afternoon. We plan on having a prototype set of the front arms done this weekend. The front arms are the ones that we wanted to complete first as they represented, in our eyes at least, the most difficult. The rears should not be that difficult to fabricate. Our initial plans for the rears call for tubular units fabricated from mild steel. Mike and I pulled a set of factory arms apart last night in his garage. It took about 1 1/2 hours of pounding on that pin to get it out!! Now that we have a "bare" rear control arm we can start work on the rear jig. We hope to have a full set of prototypes in the next couple of weeks for you all to see. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikelly Posted December 9, 2000 Share Posted December 9, 2000 My take on those outter bushings in the rear is this: You really don't need to remove those. I have never seen them flex, never felt them flex, and they are absolutely a pain in the A$$ to get the pin out without butchering it. Some fall out with no trouble, others are just difficult, period. However, and maybe SCCA or someone else who races can confirm this as well, I have done the inboard units and left the outter factory unit in, and then replaced it afterwards and honsetly, I couldn't tell a difference. That factory bushing is so thin on the outter and there is so much more metal than bushing AND it is pressed in so tight, I doubt it needs replaced unless the rubber is seriously deteriated. Thats just my take, but I don't see the need to do it unless you are replacing the whole arm with a tubular unit. Mike ------------------ "I will not be a spectator in the sport of life!" mjk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeromio Posted December 9, 2000 Author Share Posted December 9, 2000 So it's the outers (near the wheel) that are mean - the inners (near the diff) are not hard to do? But Suspension Restoration only sells them all as a set. Hrm. I'm thinking of going for it. This diff mount stuff is troubling. $50 for a replacement rubber mount? Bummer. The 280z parts car I got the mustache bar and rear control arm bar from also had a wierd, large, heavy layered, sort of L-shaped block of steel bolted to the bottom of the front lower diff mount. Seems like it was there as just a weight. Any ideas? I also, because I am a dumbass, neglected to take the front diff member off the parts car. But, I needed for it to still be rollable for ease of hauling away. Which is why I left the control arms, stub axles, struts etc. on there too. Would've been nice to have those. Then again, it's nice to not have that ugly hulk in my driveway anymore too. I guess I'll have to go to the yard and pay for parts from a car that I gave them. Ugh. Pete, I'd be interested in seeing that info on Ron Tyler's diff mount mods. I currently have an L6 though - would it still apply? As a postscript, I was going to use my susp. $$ to scoop up a cheap, low miles L28turbo, but that R180 has started making some tasty noises - not much life left in it. That and I drove behind my car (wife driving it) and saw how comical it looks bouncing severely up and down over bumps. Feels bad when you're in it, but it just looks ridiculous as a bystander. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest scca Posted December 9, 2000 Share Posted December 9, 2000 if your going to take the rears apart you may end up needing 2 new pins.....i stock them for that reason...... if your going to do it - do all 4 bushings. once its out of the car coat it in wd40 and let it sit a bit. take the center pin out and remove one end nut.. on the other end nut try and tighten it..... yes i said tighten.... if you cant spin the pin in a circle you will never remove it. heat it up with a torch till it spins. once you can spin it then tap the end without a nut with a drift. once its budged out 1/2" or so you can use a large wrench to pry between the washer and the spindle area.. this will get it 3" out and then it should be enough to spary more lube in and gently punch it the remainder out. if the cars was rusty at all then you dont even try to save the pin.. you pound it with a 10lb sledge till it comes out and put in new pins. even when they come out easily sometimes the threads will be unuseable ------------------ Mike mike@fonebooth.com http://www.fonebooth.com/brakes.html raceparts and brake upgrades. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted December 10, 2000 Share Posted December 10, 2000 Guys, Take a look at an Australian website by Simon DeGroot. He has done some absolutely beautiful work on his turbo L6 and his engine and diff mounts are awesome. He has a howto on the site. http://www.zbuild.net or http://www.usq.edu.au/users/degroot/240z/ Beautiful, I tell you, beautiful! Craig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted December 14, 2000 Share Posted December 14, 2000 I whole-heartedly agree with what Pete (Paraska) says about making a tool to drive out the pins (see reply 6 or 7 above this one). I made one up, wasn't even tool steel, just mild, slightly smaller diameter than the pin, drilled the hole in the end and tapped the thread into it. Screwed it in after a good soaking and smacked away. ..easy! One little tip that worked for me. . .after you take the cotter pin out of the middle of the pivot pin (the little wedge thing in the middle that stops the pin moving) block the bottom hole up and then feed as much WD40 or similar into the top hole, this then soaks down into the hole that the pin goes thru. Do this the day before if you can, as I say it made the job easy for me. Cheers - Simon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted December 14, 2000 Share Posted December 14, 2000 Guys, I thought of an even simpler way to take that pin out that requires no hammering and will even save the factory pin!! I have not tried it yet as I hammered mine out only to think of this little "tool" the other night while traveling down I-95...but it makes sense and should work. Take a threaded collar and with the same threads as the pin and weld a ~12" long piece of all thread to one end of the collar. Get a cheap piece of ~7/8" I.D. tubing ~11" long. Thread the collar onto the pin and place the ~7/8" tubing over the all thread. Place a flat washer over the tubing and a nut onto the all thread and just jack the pin out. Like I said, I have not tried it yet but it sounds logical and if it works it would be much easier than hammering that pin out!! By the way, an update on the adjustable control arms. I know we said that we would have the prototype fronts done up this past weekend but we made a couple of design revisions and had to have another piece machined. I picked up the new pieces this afternoon and we have to make another jig to utilize the new piece. It should result in a stronger piece with the same benefits for which we have been striving. We have also come up with what appears to be the final design for the rear control arms. We have not decided whether or not we are going to fabricate the rears out of round tubing or square tubing, any opinions? We want to finish the front arms first before moving onto the rears. From a design standpoint the rears did not represent as much of a challenge as the fronts but will be more involved regarding the fabrication process. Once the fronts are completed the rear arms should move along much faster as there is not as much custom machining involved. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pparaska Posted December 14, 2000 Share Posted December 14, 2000 Chris, your tool for extracting the pin sounds interesting, especially if you add som e shock persuasion (hammering) to the other end of the pin as you tighten the nut on your tool. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted December 14, 2000 Share Posted December 14, 2000 That should work fine Chris. . .the pin tool that is. . . I used a similar tool to remove and then replace the bushes that are in the outer end of the rear lower control arms. . .basically a big high tensile bolt, and a couple of bits of tube. you can drag the old bush out with it and then pull the new one back in. Ive drawn a little diagram of my bush puller. . .check it out at: http://www.usq.edu.au/users/degroot/240z/images/car/puller.jpg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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