Crate Motor Question for grumpyvette & others

[Guest viiper]

Hoping to hear thoughts from this crowd!

 

I'm thinking about buying a crate motor - but might want someone close by in case there is something to sort out. One builder is 50 miles away and sells on eBay... but I am not sure which package is best?

 

http://motors.search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZarracingunl

 

This ad leads me to beleive his specific build is in the Oct Hot Rod magazine, if that is true, I'd guess he knows what he is doing:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=170028372981

 

My goals: Primarily street 240Z - but some road course use (maybe a seldom trip to the drag strip). I'm a hobbyist - it will not be a daily driver - but I want the most usable power for a joyful street driving experience (understanding some dyno numbers are only from rpm's I'll see 0.001% of my street driving). I do like the lopy idle though - so I donot need something too tame! I have an M22 currently, may go to a T-56 or something with OD soon. The rear is a 3.69 (Infiniti Q45 R230). Looking for the most bang for the buck - OK spending up to maybe $5K on the motor or more depending. Longevity, premium pump gas & forged parts (in case I decide to run things later on the motor).

 

I'd rather spend $3K on a 400HP motor than $5K on a 450HP motor. Conversely, I would rather spend $6K on a 600HP motor than $5K on a 450HP motor. Not sure if that makes sense, but that is how I like to look at my numbers and decide. I'm pretty sure 400HP is my minimum.

 

For this light car and the drivetrain/use I will have... should I go more after the HP or TQ numbers in consideration?

 

I saw a post earlier about grumpyvette building a motor for someone. Do we have builders on this forum that have prices close to crate prices?

 

A great forum here!!

[LS1 240Z]

ok, it dosent seem like money is an issue for you... buy a crate LS7 ($14,000) or KATECHs 427 shortblock (a bit cheaper). then buy a LG Motorsports cam, says that it will produce 600 REAR wheel horse power, mind you this is NA. no power adders what so ever. put a T56 behind it and you should have a car that makes at least 20 MPG.

 

if thats a bit much for you.. buy an LS2 ($6000), put heads ($1000) intake ($600-800)and a cam in it and you will have 500-600 hp, no joke.

 

you should very seriously look into the Gen IV GM V8s they are much better...

[dr_hunt]

Grumpy isn't building motors as he's swamped for a year or so. But you may get on the list. That engine in ebay while being a good deal, isn't what I would consider HD. Crate engines by bigger builders that have volume sales will be cheaper IMO to what grumpy builds, since it seems that he and I both prefer HD parts to OEM. It's insurance, plain and simple, for me, not you.

 

Insurance costs money so you get what you pay for, IMO.

[SpeedRacer]

IMHO torque rules for street use. Since it will be a daily driver you might want to consider a real "crate" motor from the factory and not a rebuilt. GM offers a wide range of crate motors and most come with a 12 month/12,000 mile warranty.

 

You can get them at almost any GM dealer or on line at Pace Performance http://paceperformance.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWCATS&Category=132

[COZY Z COLE]

So.... I clicked on your link of your present car http://www.mazduh.com/default.asp#240Z. Did you buy that car and want to swap a different engine in it or are you the seller?????? BTW that Q45 diff is a R-200 not a R-230.

 

 

 

LARRY

[grumpyvette]

looking over that crate engine part list the price is good ,but the parts are not the best for the application, or even close, they were sellected mostly as the minimum that gets the job done, but you could spend slightly more and build a MUCH better engine combo thru a local engine shop, and thats what ID suggest

 

keep in mind its FAR BETTER to have a nearly bullet proof 450-500hp combo with top quality parts than a 400 hp combo or 600 hp combo thats barely able to opperate under the stress levels reguardless of the costs, saving money or power levels should be seen as secondary to absolute depenability

 

notice he said steel, not forged on the crank,(cast steel is likely)heads,were edelbrock,you really need better heads,he had (PINK RODS)not the best, limited to about 450-500 hp/6000rpm MAX, and most other parts are stock, other than the cam, pistons were hypers, again, good but not the forged Id suggest, yes those parts I suggested cost more but for about $1000-$2000 more youll have a TOTTALLY better combo, with potentially much better durrability and power, your choice but, its silly to spend $3500 to get decent combo when about $4500-$5500 will get a far supperior combo

 

well, take notes, you want to install a 4.11 rear gear, and a 3000rpm stall converter or a manual trans

 

10.5:1 cpr 383 stroker kit,

 

http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=ESP%2DB12011030&N=700+115&autoview=sku

 

a set of the new AIR FLOW RESEARCH 195cc heads,

http://airflowresearch.com/195sbc_sh.php

 

a crane #110921 cam,

 

http://www.cranecams.com/?show=browseParts&action=partSpec&partNumber=110921&lvl=2&prt=5

 

http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=CRN%2D110921&N=700+115&autoview=sku

 

rockers

http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=CRO%2D73600%2D16&N=700+400401+115&autoview=sku

 

 

a HOLLEY intake

http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=HLY%2D300%2D110&N=700+304703+115&autoview=sku

 

CARB

 

http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=PRO%2D67200&N=700+115&autoview=sku

 

headers( EXAMPLE ONLY)

 

http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=HOK%2D2224HKR&N=700+400390+4294908216+115&autoview=sku

 

nitrous

 

http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=NOS%2D02001NOS&N=700+400047+115&autoview=sku

 

 

then add tires and GO KICK BUTT..youll have 500 hp BEFORE you hit the giggle gas and up to 700 on the giggle gas

 

could one of you computer literate gentelmen post a DD-2000 on that combo with the new AFR flow numbers and the rest of the specs

[grumpyvette]

http://www.sallee-chevrolet.com/frame.html?/ChevyBigBlockV8s/572.html

 

http://www.ohiocrank.com/enginekits.html

 

http://www.worldcastings.com/crates_story.htm

 

btw if your even thinking about spending $3500-$14,000 on a crate engine BUY a kick butt ENGINE

[boodlefoof]

viiper,

 

I have an engine from AR Racing in my '68 Camaro. I decided to buy locally (Northern VA) and purchased from Mark (owner of AR). I went and toured the shop and Mark seemed knowledgeable. The shop is just a big 40x30 steel building out in rural Virginia farm country.

 

Thus far I have been pleased with my engine. I never put it on the dyno, but it runs well and I have had no problems with it.

 

However, I frequent another website (http://www.camaros.net for old Camaros) and several people have reported negatively about engines from AR - usually complaining about machine work quality. I am not trying to point you away from AR, just suggesting that you do plenty of research before making a big purchase.

[Guest viiper]

I appreciate all of the replies!!

 

LS1_240Z - I have a few hobbies, so $14K on the motor may be steep. However, I will start exploring the Gen IV V8's as you mention.

 

dr_hunt - any crate engines that you like containing the HD parts? I like the idea of pulling the trigger (once I decide) and then having it show up in a few weeks ready to drop in!

 

SpeedRacer- thanks! I will check those GM motors out too (400HP is my minimum). Perhaps TQ will be best for the smiles when out for a drive!

 

COZY Z COLE - that is my car (bought in 2001), it currently has a slight miss and low compression (#6 I think) so I am expecting a burnt valve, bum piston ring, etc. and would like to start fresh. I guess I could just have the motor freshened - don't think anyone wants to buy it with a light miss. You may be right on the R200 - I have an R230 on the garage floor (TT?) and don't recall which is in the 240 (had a Z car of some kind since I was 15 so there are parts galore). I may have mistakenly thought both were 230mm, but I recall some Q45's have an R230 (I'll check to see which I have - but had info it was 97-01 Q45 3.692 R230V). I peeked under the car and it has a 6 bolt flange on the output shafts and I thought that was R230 & not R200? Searching here some say Q45 has R230, some say not?

 

grumpyvette - excellent feedback, just what I was looking for. I agree, I will spend the extra $ for reliability and strength (I want to run it hard for years). I will certainly stick with a manual trans - I assume 93 pump gas is OK on that motor? Any builders/crate folks you feel good about?

 

boodlepoof - much appreciated as well on your experience with AR and for some places to find more feedback about AR.

 

I'll probably buy a hoist in a week or two and start yanking out the old SBC to get me moving on the project!!

[dr_hunt]

IMO you can't build an engine for "crate sales". To me everyone is different and each car is different, weight, tires, gear, trans, etc., therefore the engine needs are different.

 

If your going that route and having one built, then there are several builders of custom engines that can do the job. I was at Edwards last week watching a sbc 350 dyno at 1100HP with a 6-71 blower and carbs on it! That's what I'm talking about, pure mean HP! Not every builder can get it done.

[Filmjay]

Here I go again...bringing back a thread from the dead...

 

While planning out the heart of my GTO conversion, I know what I want, but am stumped as to the best way to get there. I was gonna use a Northstar that I have lying around, but those things are just a PITA. The money I'd spend getting it where I'd want it, I could easily buy a crate motor for half as much with the same, or more hp.

 

I have also been offered a custom SBC 355..but it's a full race, 800+ hp, aluminum circle track motor...a bit too much for what I'm realistically wanting to do with the car...which is actually drive and enjoy it.

 

What I want...A Gen1 SBC, 500+ NA rwhp at $2-4000 for the long block...NOT including a custom Extrudabody EFI system...using 3.73 rears....and NO GM centerbolt valve covers/Vortec heads.

 

I'd LOVE to build the motor from scratch myself and am tooled to do so...but the reality is that I'm just not confident enough in my skills in that department to do so. I can pick parts all day, but alot of times, it's parts that don't work well TOGETHER.

I'll pick a ZZ4 short block...try to match some Trick Flow heads...nope, valve lift is too much...Choose a Lunati crank combined with GM block...nope, block needs clearancing...get the picture?

Now, I can tear down and repair all day, but CHOOSING the right parts, being confident with those choices and KNOWING they'll all work in harmony with the correct geometry is my weak point.

 

I AM still in my planning phase, but should be getting the car within he next week or two to FINALLY start prepping the chassis.

 

Any help or advice for an old "new guy"?

 

Thanks in advance,

[dr_hunt]

Well, you can't beat cubic inches for a street motor that is going to last. Count on 1 to 1.25 hp per cubic inch IME. IMO you want to build a 406 or 421 with 9:1 compression and decent iron heads like the dart iron eagle heads and a decent hydraulic or hyd roller cam. Preferrably the hyd roller with about 230 or 240 on the seat at .050 and .550 lift or so. That will net you 500+ HP on pump gas. My 406 with 9:1 hypers, 350 rods, stock crank, dart 200 heads, performer dual plane intake, q-jet carb and an isky flat tapped hyd cam 236 duration at .050 and .510 lift made 442FWHP based on 1/4 mile trap, ET and weight at our cheezy 6000ft elevation. That is around 500hp at sea level.

[bradz240]

Grumpyvette

Do the Hooker Headers 2224HKR you spected in the above build fit a first gen Z car with a sbc?

Brad

[kiwi303]

Dang, Wish I could afford a $14,000 engine, there are a number of crate motors in the petrolhead magazine I have now.

A Supercharged 350ci Chev one for 14,673, 507Hp

A Ford 521ci Super Cobra Jet 580Hp for 13,350

A LS2 6,0L 400Hp for $7240

 

No LS1 in this ad, but they're usually around 6K, add a twin turbo bolt on kit for a LS1, either 420Kw (600hp) and 1050Nm for $8082 or a 450Kw and 850Nm for $7353

 

The exchange rate is around 75-65c US to a dollar NZ, so you guys could get them for 30% off

 

There must be even more options over there in the home of the free and land of the V8

[grumpyvette]

Grumpyvette

Do the Hooker Headers 2224HKR you spected in the above build fit a first gen Z car with a sbc?

Brad

 

ID SERIOUSLY DOUBT IT, THEIR, THERE TO GIVE YOU A EXAMPLE, of a good header, not a specific part number, naturally anytime anyone posts parts list you need to check if the parts fit YOUR specific application Ill POST a (EXAMPLE ONLY) on that list like I should have earlier (GOOD CATCH,) hey I didn,t think anyone might even, for a second,think a corvette header could be used on a (Z)

BTW THATS A slightly radical street strip combo but it makes killer power when (IDEALLY MATCHED TOO,) with a light car, a 3.90:1-4.11:1 rear gear and a manual transmission, theres a couple camaros and novas that weight 400lbs-800lbs more than a (z) running low 12s and mid 11s with that combo

[bradz240]

Grumpyvette

Thanks for the reply. I didn't check the recommended application. Just wanted to be sure I wasn't missing out on some secret long tube headers that fit our cars.

Brad

[Dat260]

"could one of you computer literate gentelmen post a DD-2000 on that combo with the new AFR flow numbers and the rest of the specs".

 

Here it is. 486hp@6000 463tq@4500

I have a question. Is this a good block? This guy as a fast Datsun.

Also how much hp is lost traveling through the drivetrain? I was told 20%.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=270329319248&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWAX%3AIT&viewitem=