Northstar

[Guest Anonymous]

I agree w/ Lonehdrider that we are going to need a few more senior citizen mishaps before good low mileage engines become more available. I actually had a chance recently to buy a salvaged '95 model w/low miles for $1200.00.

After reading some of the feedback from you guys I wish I had snapped it up. I don't think the wife would let me spring for that $3500 long block. With some of the contacts I have in the salvage business I hope I can find another. Will keep you posted.

[BLKMGK]

$4100 nearly ready to run w/EFI? Umm, YES! I think that it would be a great swap if you're willing to take it on. Does that include flywheel or flexplate? What will exhaust cost? No polishing done, correct? Factory EFI manifold? Alternator or accessories?

[Guest Jason]

I wanted to do this swap and looked into it in the fall before buying an LT1. My problem was that I had already purchased and was set on using a T56. I had a lengthy discussion with the man in charge of chrfab. He claims to rev the engine up near 9000rpm at times, and has never had a problem. He offers custom pistons for blower applications, but no crank or rods yet.

He also did not know when the T56 bellhousing would be ready, but was not close. The whole company is really a side project of his, so progress is very slow at times. I also asked 2 fiero conversion companies for quotes on their 60* v6->v8 adapter plates in hopes of using the stock t56 bellhousing, but neither replied.

I *think* the northstar's computer is the OBDI or II, just like in GM's other modern V8's, so using a salvage engine shouldn't be much more involved, and it should also be reprogrammable with a PC.

[Guest RadMike]

Okay, I called a few boneyards today. Nobody I could find had any 94 or newer caddys with the motor.

 

The 4100 does not include the flywheel, flexplate, alternator or accessories. It does include the factory intake, throttle body etc... Exhaust cost? Who knows, I'm looking into a couple things this weekend. I got detailed measurments of the motor so I'm going to mock something up and see how it might fit. One problem is the water pump hangs off the back end of the motor by about seven inches. I think it will require some type of modification. Maybe run some lines to a front mounted belt driven pump?

 

The chrFab guy says his t56 adapter will be done in a month. I am also digging into other options. I am dead set on a manual transmission, so I have to make something work. I talked to others beside chrfab and they also claim they rev to 8000+. This really seems like a great engine.

 

If I don't find any showstoppers in the next couple of weeks, I think this is the swap I'm going with.

[DavyZ]

If you pick one of these engines up, do yourself a favor and put on some of those awesome billet(?) valve covers. They some really close to making that motor look like a hemi...which would drop a few jaws at car shows and such

 

David

[BLKMGK]

I think the water pump on the back would be my big question mark. High revs is great and all and it looks good but make sure that things like cooling and juice can be taken care of without a degree in mechanical engineering or rocket science Looking closer at the pics I don't see a water pump pictured anywhere and I'm not sure I've seen a pic with a dressed motor either. A distant pic in a rod yes but nothing running up close. Would an electric pump be worth looking into maybe? How's it run on a stock motor?

 

Lastly, this motor sounds really neat but might there be another one out there just as interesting with less worries or cost? I honestly don't know but before plunging in you might want to step back and look around just a bit...

[Guest Anonymous]

I have to agree wiyh BLKMGK on that point. I put a 60degree v6 in a first gen. RX7 and I had to work out a number of problems before that thing was finished. I am going to take a lot of notes and measurements before jumping into this. If I ran across a steal on a low mileage motor I might go ahead and buy it since I feel I could unload it if there were too many obstacles in completing the swap.Will keep posted.

[Guest Will]

My father and I have been talking a little bit about this swap for his Z now that he's seen the engine I bought for my Fiero. I have a few things to say:

 

1) It is NOT a 60 degree engine. It uses a 90 degree V just like every other V8 ever built.

 

2) Output: 300 HP @ 6000 RPM, 295 TQ @ 4400 RPM

 

3) The water pump is the biggest fitment issue in the Z. As has been said is sticks out several inches off the rear surface of the left cylinder head. It might need to be positioned several inches forward of where a small block V8 would need to be. It is several inches shorter front to back, so this shouldn't be a problem.

 

4) The stock mounts are on brackets to each side of the engine, like small block mounts, only a little wider, I think. There aren't any convenient bosses on the sides of the block on which to attach small block style mounts.

 

5) bolt pattern: it uses GM's transverse engine bolt pattern. Once starter clearance issues are dealt with, it will bolt right up to my Fiero transaxle. www.mantapart.com makes bell housings to put GM FWD engines in RWD applications. The only one on their website is the Quad 4 specific bell housing, but I am reasonably sure that a) the Q4 bell housing could be used on a N* with modification, and that they also have one for regular GM FWD engines.

 

6) The power steering pump needs to be removed before the intake manifold can be turned around. The stock location for alternator and A/C compressor might work in the Z, and can be retained when the P/S pump is removed by relocating the serpentine idler.

 

7) The bottom ends of these engines are virtually bullet-proof. They don't have maincaps. They have a one piece lower crankcase casting. That setup is even better than a stud girdle--and it comes from the factory this way!

[Guest Will]

Oh yeah, Almost forgot:

 

8) The stock engine management is a B@#$%. The Aurora chip should work in the Cadillac computer and only complain that it doesn't have a transmission. The Caddy PCM will put the engine in limp-home mode if it doesn't get inputs from traction control, ABS, body computer, etc. I theorize that an LS1 PCM can control a N*, but it would certainly need reprogramming. www.carputing.com is working on LS1 reprogramming software, but it will likely be the end of this year before that is finished.

 

------------------

'75 L99 280Z

'87 Fiero GT (Future Northstar)

'86 Fiero SE (Gonna get some REALLY wild mods)

[Guest Anonymous]

Will, from what I have gathered, the Northstar mill is a front sump design. I stretched a tape under the hood(75 model) and it seemed it was going to be pretty tight steering rack and hood clearance. What have you determined regarding this? Also,do you think any of the aftermarket wiring harnesses would eliminate any of the problems you mentioned regarding the lack of needed computer inputs. I have tackled a few interesting fuel injection swaps but I am still in learning mode w/the northstar concept. THANKS.

[Guest Anonymous]

Will, I stretched a tape under the hood of my '75Z and was a little concerned w/hood and steering rack clearance w/the northstars front sump design. What have you determined regarding this? Also am concerned with some of the fuel management issues. Do you think any of the aftermarket wiring harnesses available would solve these issues? I have completed a couple of interesting fuel injection swaps but I do not want to get ahead of myself here. THANKS!

[Guest JAMIE T]

I am still considering this swap Terry. After reading through the posts, I have come to realize that this is going to be pretty complicated. I have located a complete engine, with all acc. and the ECU for $2500. I have not bought it yet. Does this sound like a good deal? It is a '99 engine and has 25,000 miles on it. The water pump location, I think, can be remedied by using a remote mount electric waterpump and some fabricated tubing and hoses. The big question is, will it fit between the strut towers and leave room to get to header bolts, etc...? Also does the modified bellhousings that CHR offers fit a T5 trans or what? Should I just buy the engine with no ECU and get a stand alone EFI? Does the "99 engine have the same forged components that the '93-'95 engines have? Do I have a brain? Do you smell smoke? I think this is getting to be too much for me.LOL

[Guest Will]

The Northstar oil pump is in the front of the engine, but the pan itself is a cast aluminum piece that is flat bottomed except for a small cutout at the rear for the stock exhaust to go under it. I haven't measured hood to rack clearance yet. We hadn't gotten much beyond the talking phase of a Z conversion.

The stock Caddy chip needs a lot of special ancillary inputs to work correctly. The Olds Aurora V8 chip, in the SAME computer, should run the engine correctly. It will, however, throw transmission codes. To use this chip, the N* fuel pressure needs to be turned up to ~55 psi or so. This is no problem because it has an adjustable fuel pressure regulator from the factory.

A wiring harness will not help the electronic issues.

 

Jamie T:

If you have questions about anythign that CHRFab offers, call CHRFab! Go straight to the source.

A stand alone ECM will not have all the features (like economy cruise) of a factory ECM, and will need a LOT of programming to run the engine well. At $1500 or more, it's also a LOT more expensive than the $34 Aurora chip, which will plug directly into the Cadillac ECM. Buy your engine with ECM, then buy and Aurora chip and a diagnostic scanner.

This works with OBDI electronics, which my engine has. I'm not sure about OBDII stuff. Converting an OBDII engine back to OBDI is fairly trivial.

Northstar Myth: "93-95 engines have forged crank and rods". This is just not true. The FIRST Northstar to have forged crank and rods from the factory is the MY2000 model. My '95 shop manual specifically states that the crankshaft is cast nodular iron and the connecting rods are powdered metal.

[Guest Anonymous]

Will to the rescue!! Things are slowly coming into focus. Seriously Will, if you get a chance to stretch a tape on that Northstar of yours to confirm adequate hood/steering rack clearance I would be grateful. I concur 100% w/ Jamie T.and some of the other members that this swap presents some extra challenges. I agree with you that setting the engine a little more forward than the JTR method probably would not hurt much since the mill is so much lighter. Anyway, sounds like you have some very interesting conversion info. regarding this Northstar thing and any info. is appreciated.

[Guest Will]

The Northstar is between 25 & 25 1/8" from the bottom of the pan to the top of the intake. It is 24" from the bottom of the pan to the top of the cam covers, the highest points of which are about 15" apart. That is without the dress up cover over the intake.

In the stock location, the coil pack is higher, but relocating that is trivial.

It is ~23 1/2" long from the bell housing mounting face to the front face of the crank pulley.

[Guest Anonymous]

Will, thanks for the info. I think the only measurement here I am worried about is the height of the motor. I am going to stretch a tape and see how feasible this looks.

Thanks.

[Guest JAMIE T]

Hey Will, Can I use the wire harness and computer from a '95 Aurora on a Northstar engine. The yard that has the 25,000 mile Northstar, also has a '95 Aurora, the whole car intact. I have tried calling CHRfab but have not gotten through to them. I have e-mailed them, and got a reply that they could fax me demensions. That is all they responded to. I asked all the same questions I asked in the earlier post but they gave no answer to those. So, I e-mailed them again this afternoon, so I hope to recieve some response about the trans questions. What do you think about the remote waterpump idea? Aerospace components has a remote mount waterpump that flows 37 GPM. Is that enough? I'm kind of Anti-Billet, but if thats all that is available, that is what I will get. I am really hoping this conversion will pan out.

[Guest Will]

I think you should trial fit the engine before you spend mucho dinero on an electric waterpump.

The OBDI N* and Aurora ECM's have the SAME part number. The only difference is in the chip, which uplugs. I have not tested it yet, but I don't see any reason why an Aurora chip would not run a N*, with the above mentioned fuel pressure change. Either way, you're going to have to modify the wiring harness for your Z. The N*/Aurora ECM is an inside-the-car computer, not a weatherproof computer.

Further, I think that you should sit down, relax, and think this through rather than running around like a chicken with its head cut off.

This is going to take a lot of work, and a lot of patience, and maybe a bit of learning if you want to do it right and have something of which you can be proud.

[Guest Anonymous]

Jamie T, I have to agree with Wills sentiment in his last post. I am cautiously optimistic at this point that this Northstar conversion will work. I am going to do some close measuring this weekend with the measurements he gave. I have pulled up a few sites where the engine has been installed in older vehicles so I feel the fuel management issues can be remedied. I want to make sure the engine will fit cleanly in the engine bay before I address the other issues.I am looking into a couple of other options which are more documented including late model Lexus and Infiniti setups. I know these V8s do not make as much power as an engine such as the N*, but they are very smooth powerplants and I am looking for that more than brute h.p. Just my goal anyway. Will keep posted.

[Guest Anonymous]

Jamie T, I think the WC t-5, economically speaking would be my first choice also. I am not sure how well it would hold up to regular abuse w/300ft/lb. of torque. Did your contact at CHRB give you an opinion about the T-5 w/ a Northstar conversion? With my fairly conservative driving I think it would be fine. BTW, do you think Will was implying that you are getting a little overly excited about the possibility of a conversion like this? Man, I can sympathize. A few years ago I helped my brother build a Classic Roadsters Sebring MX and my wife should have divorced me for all the time I spent helping with that thing. Will keep posted.