Guest Mike Posted November 24, 2006 Share Posted November 24, 2006 I'm buying a BUILT 200R4 transmission in the next couple of weeks. Is anyone running a sale on a really decent unit? 260Z Daily Driver, Street/Strip SBC 350 .060 over 350 HP/350 Torque Occasional 100HP N2O 3.9:1 CLSD (Soon) 200R4 w/ 2.5-3K Stall Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A. G. Olphart Posted November 24, 2006 Share Posted November 24, 2006 Do you know how "built" you want/need it to be? If not, there is a lot of reading material here: http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/transmission-talk/ If you already know what you want, they also have a listing of reputable builders. Edit: This list is in the thread "I want everybody to know EXACTLY who is who" A book on DIY High Performance rebuilds as well as some excellent upgraded transmissions is avalable here: http://www.CKPerformance.com A good 200R4 won't come at fire sale prices, and a cheap one is only the down payment. (I like the things, but stock, they had a few problems). <> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mike Posted November 24, 2006 Share Posted November 24, 2006 I'm buying what one of the major reputable builders calls "Stage 3". Just about every imaginable upgrade has been made to these so one should handle anything I'm likely to throw at it. The last time I priced one of these "Stage 3" 200R4's it was $1500 (or maybe $1600) plus shipping. I'm hoping to find a really well-built one on special from one of the truly reputable builders. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jakeshoe Posted November 24, 2006 Share Posted November 24, 2006 Mike, It depends on what your power plans are with this trans. I build racing GM automatic transmissions and would say I am probably more informed than most builders on the 200-4R. I am a fan of the 200-4R for several reasons. First and most of all, it is an easy retrofit in place of a short tailshaft TH350, Powerglide, or even most of the GM 3 and 4 speed manuals due to it's length and spline count. It has a better gear spread than a 700R4, and it has aftermarket parts availability that the 700 simply doesn't have. Although that may seem odd, as the 700 is a more popular swap due to it being a more plentiful unit to find cores. The Buick GN crowd has helped the 200-4R market. That said, The 200 has a few weaknesses that must be addressed or it will be short lived in even a mild combo. First these are items I consider mandatory for even a "stock" rebuild. I would not even consider building a trans for a customer without these parts, even for a stock application. All new frictions, steels, seals. 10 or 13 vane pump. Alto Red 2nd gear band. Alto Red direct clutches. 86-87 GN servo, or better yet a billet Super Servo. Hardened sun shell and pump stator (used on stock later model units) Upgraded TV boost valves. Valve body kit. I use a modified Transgo kit, however I have (with input from other builders) refined this method so that it works very well. Deep pan is preferred but it will hang too low in a Z car, so a stock pan with a custom filter/pickup, and some other mods to control oil flow in the pan on hard acceleration. The above build techniques will make the trans live to the 350 HP/TQ level. To make it live at higher power levels, it will need the direct clutches dual fed, a billet forward drum, and a 3 clutch overdrive setup as well as a few other minor internal mods. There are only two vendors who sell a GOOD forward drum, they are Chris at CKPerformance (I buy from him for my builds) and Bruce at PTS. I don't buy Bruce's products. With all the above mods, I feel the 200-4R is pretty safe to the 600-650 HP/TQ level. Some feel it is good to above that level, however I believe for the cost of all the billet internal parts needed above the ~600 hp/tq level, a customer is better served with a different trans. I quoted a guy to build the 350 hp/tq trans about a week ago, $1200. Add about $500 more for the billet drum and other mods. Also of note is that the GN, and Monte SS core trans have a much better valve body and the cores command approximately $400-600 per trans. The valve body and governor combo allows a much better part and WOT shift placement. If you try to use a "generic" valve body, you will have low rpm shifts. The governor can be modded to achieve higher shift RPM but it is a trial and error ordeal and requires alot of patience, trans fluid, and pan removal... Not fun for most guys. So $400 for a core, $1200-1700 for a build, plus converter, and install. Very easy to get $2500 into a decent 200-4R. My best word of advice is to truly understand on the 200-4R, you DO get what you pay for. There are no shortcuts. I use Chris for 200-4R parts and I would also not hesitate to recommend him for a complete unit for someone looking. In TX there is only one other name that comes to mind I would trust for a 200-4R and that is Mike Kurtz. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jakeshoe Posted November 24, 2006 Share Posted November 24, 2006 I'm buying what one of the major reputable builders calls "Stage 3". Just about every imaginable upgrade has been made to these so one should handle anything I'm likely to throw at it. The last time I priced one of these "Stage 3" 200R4's it was $1500 (or maybe $1600) plus shipping. I'm hoping to find a really well-built one on special from one of the truly reputable builders. I wouldn't consider BTO as a major reputable builder for the 200-4R's, just so you know. I'm sure there Stage 1's are pretty normal and comparable to all, but anything above that and I doubt it has the necessary parts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mike Posted November 24, 2006 Share Posted November 24, 2006 JAKESHOE... Thanks for the thorough post. This will help a LOT!! Not that I'm buying this one but what do you think of it? This one looks pretty decent and is $1395. http://www.bowtieoverdrives.com/catalog/catalog_inc/viewitem.php?ITEMID=13 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mike Posted November 24, 2006 Share Posted November 24, 2006 LOL!!! I posted the link to BTO while you were writing your last post;) Now I know to avoid that trans. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mike Posted November 24, 2006 Share Posted November 24, 2006 OMG... $2500 for a CKPerformance Stage 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jakeshoe Posted November 24, 2006 Share Posted November 24, 2006 Mike, Let me pick apart BTO's description real quick... LOL "In order to raise performance above the Level Two units, the input shaft/drum and sun shell assembly strength must be addressed. Anyone who has built serious Th-2004R Transmissions has, at some time experienced failure of one or more of these components. Our Level Two Transmissions parts have proven to be reliable to the torque levels described in Level Two and our return rate demonstrates this. We experience less than 1% failure on our Level Two units. Once you get into these engine torque and horsepower levels above the Level Two Transmissions, the input shaft to drum connection point becomes prone to fracture and the spline section will start ripping off the sun shell. Our Level Three Transmissions have the following parts added for increased strength and reliability above 450 hp and 450 ft/lbs. of torque. These components are specifically engineered to help prevent breakage in applications with exceptionally stout motors. Details of these parts can be seen at http://www.extreme-duty.com. While the late model factory sun shells are definitely a big improvement, they are certainly not up to the hard core use that our sun shells are built for. Our Level Three Transmission includes the following upgrades from Level Two: Heavy duty input shaft/drum assembly, the reinforced sun shell package and fourth gear servo. These parts will live at horsepower and torque levels over 60% greater than the stock components are able to tolerate!" OK, First the stock hardened sun shell isn't an issue, it has been proven reliable in the GN's down into the 9 second range. Nothing fancy. It's a $15-20 part... The stock late model input shaft is generally consider good to the 500-600 lb ft mark. There is no 4th gear servo for a 200-4R... LOL There is a 2nd gear servo, but not a fourth servo. I think BTO has the 700 confused with the 200... The input shaft/drum assembly is a 700 issue, not a 200 issue. The 200 input shaft drives a totally self contained overdrive planetary set, that then drives the forward drum. It is nothing like the aluminum input drum on a 700. I bet they simply used their 700 description for the 200 also... That builds lots of confidence... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jakeshoe Posted November 24, 2006 Share Posted November 24, 2006 OMG... $2500 for a CKPerformance Stage 2 Plus core charge and shipping.... I told you you get what you pay for... Look at the 200-4R competition parts on Chris's website. If you think Chris is expensive, look at PTS... http://www.ptsxtreme.com/ Go to online catalog, transmissions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mike Posted November 24, 2006 Share Posted November 24, 2006 JAKESHOE... I'm grateful that you prevented me from making a serious purchasing error. I'm a bit disappointed in the cost, which is about double what I expected to pay... (drumming my fingers on the table and mumbling explicatives). This may have to wait. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jakeshoe Posted November 24, 2006 Share Posted November 24, 2006 Honestly, you aren't getting a 200-4R that is capable of over 400 lb ft for less than $1800-2000. I have no real overhead to speak of, my shop is paid for, my tools are paid for, etc. and I wouldn't build a trans equivalent to CK's Stage II for less than $1800. I would have to run up a parts list to figure out exact pricing but they aren't cheap to build. Complete Rebuild kit- $250 Servo-$120 10 or 13 vane pump kit- $40 Alto band- $25 Hardened sun shell- $15 Hardened stator- $15 Valve body kit- $80 TV boost valves- $30 Deep pan- $150 That's $800 or so without any labor cost or any billet parts. Add $425 for a billet forward drum. Add my time to machine the OD piston, the pump, assemble the trans, etc.. Plus add core cost and any other additional expenses. Very easily gets into $2k. Most of the prices you see on the net for a built trans do NOT include the core. If you want it to have decent shift rpm placement, you need the good core, if not you'll spend as much on time to make a cheaper VB work anyway. I have ONE of the desirable 86-87 GN valve bodies on hand, it's for sale but it's not cheap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mike Posted November 24, 2006 Share Posted November 24, 2006 What is your price for a build like CK's Stage 2 with the good core? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jakeshoe Posted November 24, 2006 Share Posted November 24, 2006 It would be about the same as Chris's price honestly, I can't beat him by much because of all the billet parts that I have to buy from him. You realize that there is about $1200 worth of billet parts in that transmission? I get a discount from Chris because I deal with him often but this is one of those instance where you may be better off looking at another transmission. If you need a 800 lb ft capable transmission, I would look at a 4L80E. If you need a 500-600 lb ft capable transmission, then you can do a 200-4R without some of the billet pieces and get it a bit cheaper. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mike Posted November 24, 2006 Share Posted November 24, 2006 The 4L80E is heavier and has more power loss than I want. A 200R4 capable of consistently handling 500-600 lb ft of torque is fine. I'm not drag racing this car... it's just a fun daily driver street rocket. It really does need to hold up under daily use though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jakeshoe Posted November 24, 2006 Share Posted November 24, 2006 About $1900 off the top of my head after running up the basic rebuild parts and that would include a billet forward drum, BRF valve body, 3 clutch OD, alto red directs and 2nd band, Super servo, modified pan pickup, etc. That would also include a new GM TV cable, proper speedo gears, TCC solenoid/wiring and dipstick. You would need a converter and then install it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mike Posted November 24, 2006 Share Posted November 24, 2006 Sorry for the belated reply. Does this price include the GN/SS core? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jakeshoe Posted November 24, 2006 Share Posted November 24, 2006 Yes it includes a BRF valve body from a 86-87 GN. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mike Posted November 24, 2006 Share Posted November 24, 2006 When can you do the build and have it shipped? No hurry... just need to know for $$$ planning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jakeshoe Posted November 24, 2006 Share Posted November 24, 2006 I'm a few weeks out right now, really a couple of months out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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