Guest Mike Posted November 24, 2006 Share Posted November 24, 2006 Yikes... that's one of the first things I need. I'm having some work done soon... I can no longer do this sort of thing myself. He's replacing the trans, installing a CLSD in the R200, swapping the Scarab-style mounts for JTR, upgrading to 300ZXT CV shafts, and ensuring the driveline geometries are correct. I figure it's best to do this all at one time. If you can ensure delivery NLT 60 days, I can live with it though. Just let me know. EDIT: I meant to ask... any idea regarding shipping cost to 78109? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jakeshoe Posted November 24, 2006 Share Posted November 24, 2006 Shipping is usually about $125 terminal to terminal. Might be cheaper since it doesnt leave Texas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mike Posted November 25, 2006 Share Posted November 25, 2006 Can you ensure >60 day delivery? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jakeshoe Posted November 25, 2006 Share Posted November 25, 2006 Yes, 60 day shouldnt be a problem. Im buried up in two LSx conversions, one in a 55 chevy, another in a 69 Firebird. I also have 3 Th400 builds to do. I will likely have one of the 400s built this weekend, and the 55 LS1 initially started. The other 400 I have to do has to be done by early Dec. so it will also be out of the way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mike Posted November 25, 2006 Share Posted November 25, 2006 Okay... sounds reasonable. Can you provide a list of the components you'll use for this build? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jakeshoe Posted November 25, 2006 Share Posted November 25, 2006 It would be basically the same as the CK Stage 1 trans. I would use Chris's billet forward drum, and all the same components, with a BRF valve body. The billet input shaft, OD ring gear, OD carrier, and other bilelt stuff adds up in cost and IMO isn't necessary until over the 600 lb/ft level. My theory is that if you NEED all those parts, you need to start with a better trans. I can build a 4L80E cheaper than an all billet 200-4R and it is a much stronger trans that I can trust and so can the customer. I had a 200-4R in my '69 Chevelle that was basically identical to what you would be getting, and pretty much the same as the CK Stage 1. Mid 12 second 3900 lb car. Probably a bottom 12 second car with more converter. We'll have to get into converter selection and shift firmness before I build it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mike Posted November 25, 2006 Share Posted November 25, 2006 I owned several TH400's in my youth and I know them to be bullet-proof for my purposes. Since the 4L80E is essentially the same as the TH400, I strongly suspect that a completely stock build would be okay for me. I'd just have to convert it to manual shift because I don't want to buy the pricey control unit. It's the weight and power loss associated with the bigger transmission that stop me from going that route. Well, that and the lower-geared OD... .75:1 vs .67:1. The latter wouldn't be a problem had I a taller-geared diff. Any other suggestions? Hell, maybe I should just buy a working low-mile j/y L480E, convert it to manual shift, and install an aftermarket OD. That should get me in the .56:1 final OD ratio. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jakeshoe Posted November 25, 2006 Share Posted November 25, 2006 I always hear how "HEAVY" the 4L80 is, Does anybody actually know what it weighs? I do and it's not all that much heavier than a TH350, TH400, 700-R4, or 200-4R... I've heard some pretty crazy claims as to how heavy it is.. Like 275 lbs.. LOL They do have a heavy converter in stock applications but any performace vehicle will be using a reduced diameter converter that would weigh less. They aren't really any larger in the bellhousing area than a TH400. My TH350 was pretty tight in the trans tunnel area up at the bellhousing area, so it would be a tight fit, but it would fit without too much hammering in a Z car. I am using a 4L80 in the '55 LSx swap I'm doing, and I pulled the 200-4R from my Chevelle and sold it, so I could install a 4L80 in it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mike Posted November 25, 2006 Share Posted November 25, 2006 What I've read is that the 4L80E weighs about 80+ pounds more than the TH200R4 and requires an additional 30+ HP to turn. Is that about right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jakeshoe Posted November 25, 2006 Share Posted November 25, 2006 No. I haven't weighed a 200-4R but I have weighed a complete dry TH350 short shaft, TH400 short shaft, and 4L80E, all without the converter. TH350- 125 lbs Th400- 135 lbs 4L80E- 173 lbs The 200-4R is probably about the same weight as a TH400. So about 40 lbs difference in weight. The amount of HP a trans "uses" isn't a set number. This is another myth that seems to be blindly thrown about on the internet. A 4L80E would only use a very slight amount more HP than even a Powerglide at steady RPM in Drive, a bit more in OD because of the loss through the planetaries. The difference in HP used is only really different when you start accelerating or decelerating the difference in rotating mass. A TH350 and Th400 weight is 10 lbs different. All of this difference is rotating mass. A Th400 also has quite a bit larger planetary contact surfaces. In mid 10 second and slower combo's that I have been involved in a Th350-400 swap, I have never seen any loss of ET. In faster combos that accelerate the parts quicker, you will start to see slight difference in the ET. So nobody can say a 4L80 uses "30 hp" more than a TH400, etc. My questions would be, What type of dyno was used? what was the rate of acceleration when tested? etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mike Posted November 25, 2006 Share Posted November 25, 2006 Okay... makes perfect sense. So for a 10-11 sec car, the extra 10 pounds of rotational mass within the transmission/converter is of little/no concern on final BHP/torque as compared to wheel/tire weight/diameter? What is the difference in rotational mass between the TH200R4 vs the 4L80E? EDIT: If I opt for the 4L80E, I may also add an aftermarket OD similar to the Gear Vendor unit. This will provide a final OD ratio of ~.56:1. Any idea how much power loss I can expect from the OD unit? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jakeshoe Posted November 25, 2006 Share Posted November 25, 2006 I'm not sure you would have the space for a 4L80 and a GV lengthwise under a Z. The driveshaft would be SHORT. I would have to weight each trans apart. I don't have a 4L80 in pieces right now, it is mostly a TH400 with a OD unit to the front. I have all the TH400 weights recorded. There will be some rotating mass difference because the 2004R uses pretty light internals, hence all the billet stuff when you start making power. I should have all the 200-4R stuff in pieces, I'll have to weigh it sometime. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mike Posted November 25, 2006 Share Posted November 25, 2006 So... a SWAG for difference in rotational mass of a stock TH200R4 vs a stock 4L80E is about 15 pounds, maybe? While a "Stage 1" TH200R4 might have >5 pounds more rotational mass... would you say? Which leaves the difference at <10 pounds... SWAG? It's beginning to sound like I should opt for the 4L80E. Can the OD ratio on this one one be increased to say .67:1 or a bit higher? Isn't the OD in the tail-piece? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corzette Posted November 25, 2006 Share Posted November 25, 2006 I'm buying what one of the major reputable builders calls "Stage 3". Just about every imaginable upgrade has been made to these so one should handle anything I'm likely to throw at it. The last time I priced one of these "Stage 3" 200R4's it was $1500 (or maybe $1600) plus shipping. I'm hoping to find a really well-built one on special from one of the truly reputable builders. Mike your talking about the company that builds the RAPTORS right? I got the Stage III 700R4 that includes the TORQUE DRIVE package and I LOVE it!! No problems at all!!! They said they are good well over 700HP. It should hold on my 434 Stroker to come... Terry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mike Posted November 25, 2006 Share Posted November 25, 2006 Corzette... Thanks for your insights. I "thought" these guys made the Raptors but their website doesn't mention this. If you have the link to the company from which you bought yours, would you mind posting it? Mike your talking about the company that builds the RAPTORS right? I got the Stage III 700R4 that includes the TOW package and I LOVE it!! No problems at all!!! They said they are good well over 700HP. It should hold on my 434 Stroker to come... Terry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jakeshoe Posted November 25, 2006 Share Posted November 25, 2006 Mike your talking about the company that builds the RAPTORS right? I got the Stage III 700R4 that includes the TOW package and I LOVE it!! No problems at all!!! They said they are good well over 700HP. It should hold on my 434 Stroker to come... Terry I hate to burst your bubble but a 700-R4 built by anyone isn't good to 700 HP...not for any length of time anyway. I personally don't build them for anything past about 450 hp/tq. They have issues with the input drum and 3-4 clutches which due to the design are very difficult to fix. Difficult enough that nobody has done it yet. Some beef up the input drum by using a sleeve inside where the input shaft comes through, but this is still a band aid fix. The input shafts break at the oil holes, and the 3-4 clutches don't hold up due to their surface area and the method used to apply them. You can only put so much pressure on them because there are sheetmetal "fingers" that apply the clutches. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jakeshoe Posted November 25, 2006 Share Posted November 25, 2006 So... a SWAG for difference in rotational mass of a stock TH200R4 vs a stock 4L80E is about 15 pounds, maybe? While a "Stage 1" TH200R4 might have >5 pounds more rotational mass... would you say? Which leaves the difference at <10 pounds... SWAG? It's beginning to sound like I should opt for the 4L80E. Can the OD ratio on this one one be increased to say .67:1 or a bit higher? Isn't the OD in the tail-piece? On a 4L80E the OD is located in the front of the case, similar to a 200-4R. GM took an existing 3 speed, and added the OD unit in the front, almost a seperate deal. The 700-R4 they basically took a TH350, changed the planets for a lower ratio, and redesigned it to allow a portion of the planets to overrun allowing a 4th forward gear. This creates one of the problems with the 700 being weaker too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corzette Posted November 26, 2006 Share Posted November 26, 2006 Corzette... Thanks for your insights. I "thought" these guys made the Raptors but their website doesn't mention this. If you have the link to the company from which you bought yours, would you mind posting it? Mike, here is the website to the 200 4R Raptor. http://www.200raptor.com/ Like I said before I have had no problems what so ever with the 700R4 level 3 These are great guys to work with and seem very knowledgable. You get a choice of a stall convertor too if your running an auto. The level 4 is the strongest but mine is a level 3 with torque drive package rated at 600HP. I ran HP nearing 600HP with Nitrous and had driven it over a year with tons of passes and street driving without any problems. I bought my convertor from EDGE RACING however. They rate the Level 4 at 700HP...just passing what they advertise. http://www.transmissioncenter.net/4L60E.htm You dont need a core either....hope this helps.. A little spendy.. Terry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mike Posted November 26, 2006 Share Posted November 26, 2006 Corzette... Thanks for the links. I may try to find a j/y 4L80E with a "not DOA warranty" and see what it would cost to convert it to full manual shifting (no control unit required). I wonder if I can get this done for less than a $grand. I had several factory stock TH400's when I was a kid. These were in cars that weighed 1000 pounds more than this Z and with about the same HP/torque. I gave those cars hell and the transmissions never failed. The 4L80 is essentially the same as a TH400 and I seriously doubt I would kill one with this car. What do you think? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jakeshoe Posted November 26, 2006 Share Posted November 26, 2006 Expect to pay from $600-1000 for a 4L80E unit from a wrecking yard. If you want to install the kit to make it manual yourself, it is ~$200-250. Then you will need a converter, they are more expensive for the 4L80E, but not terribly so usually, just limited suppliers. The Z car being lightweight does help the reliability of a trans that would be marginal in another heavier application. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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