Camber Question

[ZDreamin72]

I got a question abouth streetability of the Camber kit offered in the Master Bushing Kit, as well as is there any fabrication needed to instal this kit, im not looking to fabricate anythign to get some extra performance, also, would this camber kit work; that is if its streetable, with the tokico illumina/eibach progressive set-up? For a 1972 240z, all stock besides the engine...which i will have info posted as everyone else seems to have al well, after tonights xmas shopping; Although im fairly sure it is streetable i am generally concered with the tire wear, i dont wanna be goin through tire like a mad man because they wear too much on the inside of the rubber; thanx guys

 

Heres the link to the kit, to give you a better idea of what i am talkin about

(http://www.thezstore.com/page/TZS/PROD/PSDC06A/23-4100K)

 

'72 240z, F54, L28, 0.030 Overbored, Flattop Pistons, Mild Race Cam w/ 480 Lift, Internally Oiled Cam, Early:( E88 Head, E88 Intake, Dual Roundtop SUs, 4-Speed Trans, Front Air Dam w/ No Air Ducts, MSA 6-2-Stock Exhaust, ZX Alloy Rims. Under Construction.

[zguitar71]

The camber bushings are not so much for gaining or decreasing lots of camber like a set of camber plates. They do not have very much adjustability. I have them on my car, I used them as a poor man's way of getting toe in on the rear wheels (1/8") and some extra camber (.75%). There is no problem with being streetable but they do transmit road noise far more than the stock bushings as well as more shock from expansion joints and such but I also have an ABS steering couplier too which transmits every thing, but you are more connected with the car as far as feeling the road. You might be able to get + or - 1 degree of camber with the bushings. If you are lowering your car then you will gain - camber that way too, you might put some of the camber back with the bushings. I would not worry about the tire wear, if you are into cornering then the -camber will help decrease the wear on the outside of the tires, if it is set right the wear will be even across the tire width. If you have - camber and you are doing lots of burn outs you will wear the inside of the tire. No mater what if you are driving hard do not expect the tires to last long anyway.

[cygnusx1]

My Z is lowered from stock by 1" and I have the front camber bushings (eccentric) set to full negative and I get -1.3 degrees up front. I also have the "bump steer spacers". The car is totally streetable, in fact, it feels better on the road with the -1.3 camber up front. The noise added is minimal.

[gvincent]

I asked about bump steer spacers in another location and never really got an answer so maybe you would know.

I want to lower my 76 280Z with a V8 car no more that 1-1/2", I am still not sure what springs to use but will probably go with Tokico Illuminas. I don't feel I need to go the coil-over route because for one it is too expensive and 2 I have no welding skills to section any struts. So I was just gong to go with lowering springs and the Tokicos. Now I had asked about the bump steer spacers and if they are needed and how do you determins what size spacer to get.

What is your setup and how did you size your spacers?

Thanks, Greg

[Zmanco]

So I was just gong to go with lowering springs and the Tokicos. Now I had asked about the bump steer spacers and if they are needed ...

Search my friend: http://forums.hybridz.org/showthread.php?t=116582

[gvincent]

Zmanco, Daniel thanks for the lead on the search, I will try and look some more to see if I can find out how you determine what size bump steer spacers to use and where to find them.

If my searches are sucessful I will post my results here.

Thanks, you definately proved to me that they are indeed needed on a slightly lowered street car.

Thanks,

Greg

 

Well I searched bump steer spacers and found a lot of pros and cons so now I am really confused. Some guys say they are no help but these are the guuys drilling their control arms and pivot points etc. I don't want to do this I just thought that I would need these spacers If i lowered my car with springs at all.

I still couldn't find how to find out what size spacer to get and I do not have any dial indicators to measure as was described below:

 

Bumpsteer can be measured with a bumpsteer gauge. Wasn’t that easy?

 

A bumpsteer gauge is basically a glorified pair of dial indicators. Usually a bumpsteer gauge comes with a steel or aluminum plate which gets strapped to the wheel. A stand sits next to the front tires that holds the dial indicators in contact with the plate. The suspension is moved up and down, and the front and back dial indicators are compared to measure the toe change. Unfortunately, you want to do this measurement right in the car’s normal ride height, and through a couple inches of suspension movement on either end of that ride height. To accurately measure the front springs and sway bar must be removed, then the car must be placed at ride height with relation to the suspension and moved up or down while monitoring the toe change on the dial indicators.

 

I also saw where the determining factor for the spacer size was because of interference with the wheels? I would want to think that a specific sized spacer is required for a given length in lowering the car and not interference by the wheels.

 

I also searched out the stickies on suspension and a lot of this custom or modified LCA's and offset bushings etc. was way beyond my understanding.

I just want to lower my car a little and do basic stuff to help it handle as good as it can without doing any cutting/drilling/welding or spending thousands on custom control arms, tie rods, etc.

 

What have all you mild street guys done with lowered cars and SBC to get it to ride and handle decently.

Thanks,

Greg

[ZDreamin72]

ALrighty then, how easy is it to adjust the camber kit, i mean obviously im going to have to adjust it but i dont want to have to go through such a process as it is to adjsut the SUs you know; or is it as simpl as loosen a nut and turn the bushings? thanx again

[cygnusx1]

I put the bump steer spacers in before I even knew what they were. As far as I can tell, they do keep the control arm more parallel with the tie rods when looking at them from the front. They also keep the roll center of the car above ground which I hear is a good thing.

 

The camber bushings are fairly easy to adjust when the car is on jackstands and you have the right tools. Just loosen and adjust and lock.

[Zmanco]

gvincent, you can usually find them on ebay, or get them from MSA. I've only seen one size which is 1". I'll guess that is because 1" is the typical drop from stock ride height when people install lowering springs.

 

If you want to experiment, do like I did and just change your springs and struts and try it. It's a pain to put them in later, but it can be done, just don't let any women and children be nearby to hear all the cursing.

[Zmanco]

My Z is lowered from stock by 1" and I have the front camber bushings (eccentric) set to full negative and I get -1.3 degrees up front. I also have the "bump steer spacers". The car is totally streetable, in fact, it feels better on the road with the -1.3 camber up front. The noise added is minimal.

My own experience with other cars is that adding negative camber results in the front end tracking ruts. Did you experience that when the road ISN'T smooth?

[cygnusx1]

I avoid rough roads but to tell you the truth the car seems to track fine. I am not sure if -1.3 is enough to notice but the tires are wearing much more evenly. The tramming is more of a function of tire design and toe.

[gvincent]

Thanks Cyngusx1,

what size bump steer spacers did you end up using? how much did you lower your car? so you are using the adjustable bump steer bushings as well?

All the suspension postings by Ross, Jon M and John C etc are really detailed and these guys are really smart but I wish I could understand what they are saying.. I start to read those posts and my eyes start to glaze over.

 

I am the type of person that can tear a motor down and rebuild it perfectly, but I always need advice on what selection of parts to use. I can do research and try to understand what I should use for a selection but am always looking for advice. Or If I do understand it I can narrow down my choices but will still ask a pro on his opinion or his choice and why.

 

Please everybody be patient with my questions

So based on my research to date my suspension setup:

 

1976 280Z with Lseries SBC and T56 trans

to lower my car 1-1/2" on 15" Enkei rims with Falken 225/60

Tokico Illumina struts (Ebay?)

Eibach, Suspension Technics, or ??? lowering springs at 200 front and 225-235 rear (JC Whitney Arizona Z?)

MSA bump steer spacers for the front. Size??? (Anybody else?)

Do more research on Bump steer bushings for Front and rear lower contol arms?

I already have Suspension Technics 1-7/8' sway bar, tension control arm and aluminum cup and ball from my 78 280Z, solid steering coupler, and all my steering rack and other bushings I will swap over to the 76

does this sound like I am on the right track?

thanks again everybody.

Greg

[cygnusx1]

Get a suspension package if you can that has matched springs and struts. I doubt your sway bar is 1-7/8'. It's Probably 1-1/8". That is the biggest you would ever need up front. Try 1" front and 3/4" rear. Lower it as much as you want with the kit you pick. 1-2" is acceptable lowering. Dont get caught up with the Pros on this site. They are really good at getting the last split seconds out of a lap, but for the street, you can stick with more conventional "bolt on kits".

 

LOL sorry about the laugh but you dont need bump steer spacers for rear wheels...they dont steer.

 

My suspension geometry is not adjustable. It is totally stock except for the 1" Spacers and the front camber bushings, 1" lowering springs and Iluminas.

 

Don't change too many things at once. One at a time.

 

Street Suspension Importance:

**Wheel Alignment after mods.

1 Springs and struts and tires

2 Sway bars (Poly bushings all over the car)

3 Camber adjustment (front and rear) eccentric Bushing type or Camber Plates

4 Bump steer spacers (front) matter of preference. I use em.

5 T/C rod bushings (Poly or aluminum) I like Poly/Stock combo (search)

6 Steering coupler (I like the stock one)

 

Don't worry about what the pros are doing unless you are already deep into racing and you are on slicks.

[cygnusx1]

Ill make it easy:

Lower it 1"-1.5" with a kit that has Iluminas and matched springs.

Add 1" bump steer spacers front

Add front and rear camber bushings

1-1/8" front swaybar, 3/4" rear

Poly bushings everywhere. use rubber on the backside of the T/C rods and steering coupler.

Camber, have it aligned with -1.3 degrees front and -0.5 rear.

front/rear toe set to ZERO.

 

That will be a good street setup good for guessing .92-.96g's with good tires.

[gvincent]

Cyngusx1 thank you!

That was exactly the reply I was looking for!

(Glad you got a chuckle out of it also ()

Back in the late 80's I took my 78 280z to Bob Sharp's place in CT and the put the 1-1/8" swaybar on, all Polyurethane bushings front and rear, the solid steering coupler, and the T/C rod kit with the aluminum socket and nylon? ball? (I still have the metal template to check the tension on it) some KYB shocks and I think the european springs.

 

My 76 280Z that I am putting in the V8/T56 is all stock from what I can tell and I will replace all the bushings with a new Poly kit, I was going to swap over the sway bar and TC kit from the 78 280Z along with the tires and wheels.

So as a "Package" I like the Tokicos for struts but read some of the posts about their springs lowering too much, being loose in the perch and being progressive type up front. Should I still consider their package or go with different springs? what rate springs did you go with?

 

BY the way I just check out your web site and you are an incredibly good photographer!, your car is a piece of art!

I can only hope mine turns out half a good as yours is!

Thanks again Greg

I need to start posting pictures of my 2 Z's in their different stages on not running and mid project.