Scottie-GNZ Posted May 21, 2002 Share Posted May 21, 2002 This is going to sound nuts, because I still do not believe it but am living it. My steering tightens up the more I tighten the 2 u-clamps. I have tried everything even to the point of repositioning the rack so that the u-joint was totally out of whack. I have resigned myself to using longer bolts and tightening (no where close to "normal") to the point where I can feel it tightening up, then using a lock nut on the end of the bolts. Couple of weeks ago when I realigned the front-end, the shop did me a favor and tightened up the "loose" bolts on the rack for me . It is almost as if when I tighten the clamps that the rack is being crushed or bent, but of course it is not Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike kZ Posted May 21, 2002 Author Share Posted May 21, 2002 Had my car aligned a few days ago. Before the alignment the car steered very easy while driving, now after the alignment I have to put some force in steering into corners. I think my alignment numbers are 1/16 toe out, 1 camber pos., and 3 caster pos. Are there better numbers to make the car steer better, or easier into corners? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim240z Posted May 21, 2002 Share Posted May 21, 2002 Mike, It is the caster that makes the steering more difficult. The higher the caster angle the more stable the car will be, but the tradeoff is more steering effort. With the stock setup, you can obviously only adjust toe. I definitely don't agree with having neg. toe on a RWD car. Assuming all the angles being adjustable, I would set my car up thus: Camber: Slightly on the negative side of neutral (-0.05 to 0.10 degree) Toe: Slighty positive (0.5 to 0.1mm toe in) Caster: Max of 2 degrees. Dial in 1/3 to 1/2 degree more on driver's side to overcome road crown/camber. Always set alignment with driver in the car (or at least balast). HTH. Tim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike kZ Posted May 21, 2002 Author Share Posted May 21, 2002 I found my alignment specs. Camber: neg 1.0 left , neg 1.0 right Caster: pos 2.7 left , pos 3.6 right toe: pos 0.14 left , pos 0.14 right Do you think this is a good alignment Tim? Is this why it is harder to turn into a corner now? Scottie, do you think your extra u-joint has something to do with those bolts being to tight? Maybe something not lined up just right. I have an extra u-joint also. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scottie-GNZ Posted May 21, 2002 Share Posted May 21, 2002 I would not rule out the extra u-joint, but lets think about it for a second. What exactly is happening when we tighten down on the 2 clamps? The rack is being "lowered", but it can only go as far as the bottom portion of the bushing will compress and they are urethane bushing. Are we missing something else that happens when those clamps are tightened? I would be curious to know if your steering would loosen up if you also loosen those clamps. Gotta love these cars Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim240z Posted May 21, 2002 Share Posted May 21, 2002 I found my alignment specs.Camber: neg 1.0 left , neg 1.0 right Caster: pos 2.7 left , pos 3.6 left toe: pos 0.14 left , pos 0.14 right Do you think this is a good alignment Tim? Mike,I am going to assume that your front suspension is stock and that you don't have any adjustment except for toe?! General rule of thumb (at least mine, and I've never had a come-back on any of my non-factory alignment specs (which BTW, factory specs are in many cases terrible) that I've done), is always run a little toe in when running -ve camber on a RWD car. From that standpoint, what you have looks fine. I would bet that the car now pulls to left (assuming that you meant to type "right" instead of "left" for the 3.6 deg caster figure) when you let go the steering wheel !! Those caster numbers should be opposite (bigger number on the left) to overcome road crown/camber. As for the tight steering, nothing in those alignment data show that symptom would arise. The caster is a little high, but not really enough to make a marked difference, and probably hasn't changed significantly since your alignment was done (since it's not adjustable). Could be something was loose (rack pre-load or something) which the alignment tech 'fixed' for you. See if you can find out from the tech. Also, do you have the specs before adjustment? That would help to narrow down what has changed and what the effects could be. Also, I am assuming that you (or some ballast) wasn't in the car!? If you plan to go back for a recheck, sit in the car. If they give you some crap about insurance not allowing that, time to find another alignment shop that at the very least has sand bags or some kind of weight to mimick driver. Most places don't have a problem with letting you sit in the car, and most places will recheck/readjust for free within a short period of time since the last check. BTW, did you change ride height? If you raised the rear (or lowered the front), that would put more weight in the front....... HTH Tim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike kZ Posted May 21, 2002 Author Share Posted May 21, 2002 It is lowered with coil overs, plus I have caster/camber plates. No I didn't mix up left and right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim240z Posted May 21, 2002 Share Posted May 21, 2002 Mike you have left in for both numbers of caster! Tim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pparaska Posted May 21, 2002 Share Posted May 21, 2002 Maybe if the left and right caster are 2.7 and 3.6 respectively, that's what's causing it? As Tim said, shouldn't it be opposite to counter road crown? If so, road crown and that caster set up might be adding up to a pull to the left? I think Scottie is getting to the idea that maybe clamping down the mounts is compressing or bending something in the rack housing making it bind? Could be. Have you tried disconnecting the steering from the rack? Is the steering column binding? Are the tie rods at there angular travel limit due to lowering? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spotfitz Posted May 21, 2002 Share Posted May 21, 2002 Wouldn't the length from tie rod end to tie rod end increase when tightening down the rack, do to the angle of the tie rods unless the ties rod ends are even with the rack? The rack being at a higher point on a horizontal plan, to the tie rods ends(or tie rod end center line), and then lowering the rack would lengthen the distance do to the angle, right? Am I making any since? Or in other words: Unless the tie rod ends are on the same horizontal plan(and parallel) as the rack, then any movement up or down would cause a toe in affect, unless calculated for in the alignment. I can visualize it, but hard to put in words. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blueovalz Posted May 22, 2002 Share Posted May 22, 2002 I've had some pretty wacky specs on my alignments (grossly out of specs) and it never caused the problem you are listing. My thinking is the extra U-joint. I've not seen any pics of your configuration, but if the rack is extended or lowered as a result of tightening the clamps, then would this change in geometry cause a bind in the steering rod instead? This would only be true if you were somehow supporting the steering rod midway somewhere due to the extra U-joint. Just a thought. (send a pic) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike kZ Posted May 22, 2002 Author Share Posted May 22, 2002 Before I had it aligned, I set my camber/caster plates by eye, and set my toe as close to stock as I could. It tracked straight and was easy turning left or right into a curve. The only problem was the car would dart a little going straight. I had the car aligned, the car still tracks straight, I didn't notice any pulling. But it's harder to steer into a curve, both left and right.( I just need more arm strong steering, if you know what I mean). I didn't change anything on the rack, so I don't think it's that. I'm guessing it's the caster that's making it harder to steer like Tim said. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scottie-GNZ Posted May 22, 2002 Share Posted May 22, 2002 As you can see below, the rod is supported in the middle. I can understand a change in geometry causing binding, but tightening down the clamps should only effect a minor change. I have actually rotated the rack causing severe angles in the u-joint and without the rack bolted down tight, I get no binding. As soon as I tighten it down to "normal", it binds. Mike, when yours binds, does it retun to center like normal or do you have to turn the wheel back yourself? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blueovalz Posted May 22, 2002 Share Posted May 22, 2002 I had 8 degrees of caster in mine, and it noticeably tried to correct itself with more pressure than before, but it was barely noticeable. The ONLY reason I went to power steering was because of the 10" slicks WITH 14MM shorter steering arms WITH a small diameter aftermarket steering wheel, AND I was needing quickness through the slaloms. Other than that the increase in caster really did not appreciably effect the steering. If indeed the caster is to blame, then after grunting the wheel to one side or the other, you will feel it pull back harder. If it is a bind somewhere in the linkage, then after you grunt the wheel to one side or the other, then the force to hold it in place should return to normal. In other works, is the increased resistance you are talking about only while turning the wheel, or is it still there after the wheel is turned in a constant radius turn? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike kZ Posted May 22, 2002 Author Share Posted May 22, 2002 Originally posted by blueovalz:. In other words, is the increased resistance you are talking about only while turning the wheel, or is it still there after the wheel is turned in a constant radius turn?[/QB] It's only while I turn the wheel, it comes back on it's own and does not bind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Modern Motorsports Ltd Posted May 22, 2002 Share Posted May 22, 2002 Scottie-GNZ: My steering tightens up the more I tighten the 2 u-clamps. Scottie, does your steering setup still have a splined joint anywhere in it? If so did you leave it 'loose' until everything else was bolted down tight? If not it might be trying to 'stretch' while bolted up tight and something else is trying to accomodate the desired 'stretch'? Just a thought....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.