Tony D Posted July 27, 2008 Share Posted July 27, 2008 Last month I am helped a friend of mine to convert his 280zx to megasquirt (it is up and running fine). After this summer he is going to convert it to lpg vapour injection. He has a 70 liter ringtank in the spare tire location. I am very interested to see how the car will run on megasquirt and lpg. I am thinking of converting my lpg converter system in my datsun c31 laurel to injection too. It's always nice if someone else pays your tuition fee. . note: LPG stand for liquified petroleum gas. It is not straight propane. It is a mixture of propane and butane. The mixture is adjusted for winter/summer temperatures. (maybe this information is europe specific but I don't think so). I have been for a drive in the aforesaid converted vehicle, and took a few snaps of the setup. I just don't have them with me right now. It drove well and I did not notice anything untoward...other than you NEED a full-size spare to use the "Ringtank" Xander speaks of... I don't have time to screw around with it... If I do anything I will drop in an LD28 for the time being, at an out-the-gate MPG of 40, it will easily justify the 10% cost premium over Premium Fuel the 260 currently requires to drive around (and STILL ping on hot days!) Hell, I may convert to diesel AND be able to run A/C...Maybe in the ZX... The commercial Fueling Station near my house is currently at $3 a gallon when premium petrol is selling for $4.54...and I have been apprised that the home fueling option has almost doubled (wooo) in price to closer to $.80 a gasoline gallon equivalent. Some school districts have been found selling CNG 'off the books' for the bulk price they fuel their busses with...which is around $1 a gallon equivalent. You just have to know when to show up so you get 'the best fill' for your fueling time available. The CNG Station on Aviation and 104th by LAX has added a secondary storage cylinder bank, as well as a Sulzer Compression Skid, so it's seemingly pumping a lot more fuel these days... Maybe I will buy one of those Surplus CNG Lincoln Town Cars... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tannji Posted July 27, 2008 Share Posted July 27, 2008 I apologize for the long post in advance, but I am interested, and this information is relevant to some or all: (quoted from CNGChat.com/forums) Converting a gasoline or diesel vehicle to run on natural gas is a $8,000 to $18,000 proposition when done safely and legally. There are tax credits starting at $4,000 to offset this (see #7 below). In the United States the conversion of a vehicle with onboard diagnostics (OBDII) must be performed using an EPA or CARB certified retrofit. This generally means all vehicles less than ten years old or so fall into this requirement. Getting past EPA certification is generally a $40k to $80k root canal per engine family and model year for the Small Volume Manufacturer ("SVM") providing these retrofit solutions. CARB certification for California and 12 other states which have adopted CARB standards is about a $300k process per engine family and model year. The prices in #1 above include at least $2k to $6k in recovery costs for the root canal described in #3. The rest is in expensive high-pressure CNG tanks, regulators, injectors, and of course the installer's shop time. There is no shortage of illegal kits out there which purport to convert anything with four wheels to run on CNG. There is also no shortage of shadetree mechanics willing to throw these dubious kits on your vehicle. While they and you might never be caught, there are many downsides to this including: unqualified mechanics installing poorly engineered / dangerous high-pressure flammable gas systems; messing up the vehicle's fueling system and diagnostics (engine light constantly on & burning up catalysts), fines and penalties; zero tax credits to offset the installation. If you are in California, don't even think about it... CHP impounds vehicles without a valid CARB certificate. CNGchat is a forum for the promotion of safe and legal products. We remove posts and ban users who use this forum to promote illegal and non-certified products (click here for our rules on the matter). There are federal and state tax credits & other incentives to help offset the cost of your legal conversion. Please browse over to the Incentives Forum, especially the "sticky" threads which describe these incentives in detail. Here is the current list of legal conversion systems. http://www.ngvamerica.org/pdfs/marke...ses.NGVs-a.pdf If your vehicle is not on the list please don't ask us why. Many of the illegal kit manufacturers have deep pockets and have certified their systems with the EPA in past years. If you are in contact with these companies please ask them to suck it up and get their systems certified again. NGV America has put together an excellent primer on conversions. Please take a moment to read this FAQ before starting any new discussion threads here. Many of the questions that keep getting posted on this forum are answered in the document. Thanks! http://www.ngvamerica.org/pdfs/FAQs_...ng_to_NGVs.pdf One more, Also from CNGChat: Convert Your Vehicle to Compressed Natural Gas - SAFELY Source - NGVAmerica - CVEF Thursday, 22 May 2008 USA The following bulletin was issued by NGVAmerica and the Clean Vehicle Education Foundation(CVEF). Though aimed at the US market, the safety message is relevant to most other markets as well. As gasoline and diesel prices continue to rise, many people are considering converting their car or light truck to run on compressed natural gas (CNG). CNG is a clean, inexpensive (currently selling for less than half the cost of gasoline) domestic fuel. Best of all, it uses zero imported (or domestic) petroleum. And government rebates are available to help with the cost of conversion and to further lower the cost of CNG fuel. But conversion from gasoline to CNG should not be done by unqualified technicians, using unapproved conversion kits or unsafe high-pressure gas cylinders. The US Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) has rules concerning the manufacture, sale and installation of alternative fuel engine conversion systems. The California Air Resources Board has similar and even more stringent emission rules for conversions in that state. Only EPA and/or CARB-certified conversion systems are permitted to be installed on vehicles. While a variety of non-certified systems are sold on the Internet and/or offered by some automotive shops, EPA has taken the position that installation of these systems is "tampering with a federally approved emission control system", a federal violation punishable by a substantial financial penalty. Installation of non-certified systems can also cause a vehicle to fail emissions inspection. Because of the technical difficulty and the expense of EPA and CARB certification, certified conversions are only available for a limited number of engine families and applicable vehicle models. An up-to-date list of all currently available EPA- and CARB-certified engine retrofit and repower systems is available at NGVAmerica. New Honda Civic GX CNG vehicles, built in the USA, are also available in some states (see Honda). Installation of an engine conversion package and fueling system may be done when the vehicle is first purchased or after it has been in service. EPA and CARB require that converters provide appropriate documentation and training to installers of their systems. Installation by non-qualified installers is illegal and could damage the retrofit equipment or the engine (or both), compromise vehicle performance, or render the vehicle unsafe to operate. No EPA- or CARB-certified engine conversion systems are sold to untrained/unapproved installers. CNG conversions SHOULD NOT be performed by unqualified technicians! Properly installed CNG systems are safe and economical, with the vehicle operating almost exactly like a gasoline vehicle. However CNG systems rely on high-pressure compressed natural gas for fuel, and high-pressure gases require specialized components and technical skills for installation. Conversions should be done according to the National Fire Protection Association's Vehicular Fuel Systems Code (NFPA 52). CNG converters and vehicle owners are reminded that CNG cylinders, often the most expensive component of the fuel system, must carry labels showing they meet the applicable Department of Transportation standard (FMVSS 304) by the symbol "DOT" on the label. The label will show an expiration date, after which the cylinder may not be safely used. Cylinders should also be inspected for safety every three years or 36,000 miles, whichever comes first (see www.cleanvehicle.org for more information). Converters and vehicle owners should have documentation that this safety inspection has been done. Detailed answers to "Frequently Asked Questions About Converting Vehicles to Operate on Natural Gas" are available from NGVAmerica. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tannji Posted July 27, 2008 Share Posted July 27, 2008 So... After doing some reading at CNGChat and NGVAmerica... is it legally doable to convert to LPG or similar fuels on our own, or are we required to have a certified installation? I know that the gas cylinder has to be certified, labeled, and follow an inspection schedule. I can probably arrange for a cylinder exchange (fill-up) at work, but I am not so sure I want to get pulled over by a DOT officer. Do any of our "Exempt" vehicles get around this, or just get around the CARB and EPA requirements? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony D Posted July 27, 2008 Share Posted July 27, 2008 Well I guess since none of my S30's were ever OBD compliant, that is not an issue for me... And the EPA has issued rulings regarding vehicles over 30 years old regarding emissions... So I would think the vehicles addressed are those produced within the past 10 years and anything else is a biiiiiiiig grey area. A CNG Lincoln Town Car for instance...All the 'regulated components' are there for a 5.4L V8 conversion (or bigger V10)...and you can't tell me the CNG Tanks from a late-model Honda Civic are any more well mounted in that little crapbox than where they could be on..say, a 1975 280Z with REAL 5-MPH Compliant Bumpers! Nobody here has an 'Exempt' vehicle, either. Unless you meet some very stringent conditions, or work for a municipality... NGV Systems on Gothard in Huntinvton Beach has been doing CNG conversions in SoCal with CARB Blessings for years. Maybe someone should approach them with the question. Then again, these guys are droning on about CARB compliance. What Joe Public does outside of California to his 30 year old classic vehicle is about as far from Governmental Snooping Purview as I think it can be. As long as you are using DOT compliant pieces, a 'DOT Compliance Stop' would net nothing of note... What these guys are talkingabout is people taking scuba tanks or CNG Tanks from Boats for Cooking Gas and stacking the back of their Surplus Dodge Passenger Van chock full 'o tanks so they got a 1000 mile cruising capability (why do I mention this? Because just such a vehicle arrived every second Thursday at a Clean Energy Fuels Station I tended...) I think the DOT has a LOT better things to do than do random roadside compliance checks of private individuals doing PERSONAL conversions for PERSONAL use... Then again, the gubbmint does some stupid things to waste the people's money, far be it from me to say it would never happen. I hope you aren't suggesting you convert a tank from one gas use to another?!?!?! CNG tanks are integral to the vehicle, and are designed for removal for maintenance, inspection, and replacement. Many vehicles have supplemental tanks added to increase their range between fillups. I know of a lawyer in SoCal that does all his travelling in-state in such a modified Lincoln Town Car. Certified conversion/addition? Who knows, maybe if the DOT stops him he'll pro-bono advocate on behalf of hobby conversion enthusiasts nationwide! It's interesting how they get on the pre-OEM conversion stuff---like there is some greay area about it since there was no existing legislation regarding it: Note that, unlike the unregulated "conversion kits" that were available from dozens of manufacturers in the late-1970s through the mid-1990s, all gaseous fuel engine systems on the market today are engineered and tested to comply with the same tough CARB and/or EPA emissions performance requirements as the large automobile manufacturers. I got to think that maybe it might be up to me to determine the suitability of the vehicle's application rather than Big Brother. So they didn't meet todays 'stringent oem quality/emissions standards'---neither does my 240Z...should it be relegated to illegality and I be forced to drive a 350 now as my only alternative. Sounds like a lobby group entrenching their fifedom to me... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedFive Posted July 27, 2008 Share Posted July 27, 2008 Tannji, That's exactly the crap I'm talking about. The reason I revived this post is because I agree with Tony that the gov't is never...ever...ever...going to come find me in Arizona and check to see if I'm being safe with my CNG. Even if I was still living in California, nobody would care. When's the last time you got pulled over for speeding in LA? They've got lots of other things to keep them occupied than worrying about me blowing myself up. We're all smart enough around here to do a conversion safely and not use scuba tanks, so I was curious if anybody had actually done it. I would be interested in those pictures Tony and I'm sure many others would be as well. Post 'em when you get some time! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Titus_RacerX Posted September 28, 2008 Share Posted September 28, 2008 This is a topic that I just started to think about. In the Atlanta area we are currently waiting in long lines for that crap we need to get to work. Now, I could ride my bicycle and might do that a few days this week.... I sure would like an alternative fuel! We are waiting for a diesel SUV to hit the market and do biodiesel BUT, if I could also free myself by converting my Z restoration to CNG. In the future I hope to be driving an electric commuter, a biodiesel SUV and a CNG Z! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony D Posted September 28, 2008 Share Posted September 28, 2008 The LPG conversion I drove in Holland was really nicely done, and Megasquirt ECU'd to boot! And that was a tank that was strapped into the spare tire well shaped like a doughnut!!! AND that is TUV approved. A bit more stringent than most EPA or DOT requirements IMO. But will you EVER see that type of 'DIY' retrofit offered for sale here in the USA? Doubtful. There has to be a point where you jsut tell the Government "FOAD" and get on with your life. I'm to that point with a lot of automotive things. It's beomce clear to me that through the years it's less and less about competent legislation and more about keeping money in someone's pocket. I'll probably illegally be importing one of hte LPG systems I saw some time in the future. I can fuel it at the local U-Haul or Mexican Grocery---where they won't give me hassles about 'doing it properly'---they just take my money and smile. I like simple things, and living my life and driving my car in a clean manner should not require government approval. Especially if it's predicated on the fact that I have to buy a current-production vehicle at a cost of $30K+... I have a house that didn't cost me that much. Screw them. Sorry for the rant. I probably shedded myself for this post. Hopefully not the whole thread, though. Some stuff just fills me up, and it boils over from time to time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiwi303 Posted September 28, 2008 Share Posted September 28, 2008 If you have the cash and want factory, Ford Australia build factory LPG only engines for their cars. maybe import a falcon engine from a wrecker there? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony D Posted September 30, 2008 Share Posted September 30, 2008 Ford USA builds a whole slew of CNG-Only engines available through their dealer network here. The whole modular V series is available. The 5.4 I had in my E350 came from the factory with 13:1 Compression ratio, and apparently forged pistons. I thought it would make a nice econo-racer setup if it had a more agressive cam and ran it on racing petrol! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BusterZ Posted October 1, 2008 Share Posted October 1, 2008 Really a good choice if you have your own gas well !!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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