sltn87 Posted July 24, 2007 Share Posted July 24, 2007 Hi, I've been a lurker here for the most part, I've made threads here and there but never really posted nothing really technical as far as L28 tech goes. After searching threads for a LONG time I'd like to ask a few questions specific for my n/a 280ZX as I noticed not many people choose to build n/a 280ZXS around here, okay here goes: I own a 1983 Datsun 280ZX non turbo P79/F54 combo; I'd like to retain that combination as I've heard the P79 has good anti-detonation qualities for n/a applications plus it seems like the perfect head for beginners compared to others such as the MN47. Originally I was going to halfway-turbo it by just getting the turbo manifold and a higher output fpr and just rigging it up to work with the n/a electronics since I didn't feel like doing the complete turbo swap (motor/harness/ecu/afm/etc.). Now I just want to build a mild n/a application while maintaining the stock FI setup (I don't have money for mega squirt or the like). Here's a few things I would like to know: What is the highest stage Cam you can safely run on the stock FI? I'm planning to go with a Stage II but I will go with a stage I if neccessary. Are there any cheaper alternatives compared to megasquirt so I can run a more aggressive cam? What is the stock FI capable of as far as n/a goes? I apologize if these are ignorant questions but it would be nice to have Buildup Stages for my 280zx so I can know where to start, once again I'm not building a track monster just something zippy and fun around the curves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
76s30 Posted July 24, 2007 Share Posted July 24, 2007 well every manufactures specs vary for each "stage" cam if you will. But a few of the guys on here have told me the MSA stage III cam is the most the stock FI will handle. is that double dragon in your sig? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators BRAAP Posted July 24, 2007 Administrators Share Posted July 24, 2007 If you are planning to run the OE EFI and want your engine to run smoothly under most to all conditions, do NOT switch out cams. If the cam you choose alters the VE/torque curve very much at all from the stock VE/Torque curve, you will NOT be able to alter/fool the ECU to “fully†compensate for the new fueling requirements, PERIOD. You will be making compromises in the tune at various points to clear up others. We’ve been playing with, altering, tuning, tweaking, fooling, jinxing, pushing, pulling, balancing, aligning, honing, porting, smashing, shooting, the OE Hitachi EFI for over 17 years now. Trust me on this. If you want an aftermarket cam, install aftermarket EFI, simple as that. This is a very recent thread covering this exact scenario.. http://forums.hybridz.org/showthread.php?t=123950 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sltn87 Posted July 25, 2007 Author Share Posted July 25, 2007 Thanks for the input everyone. @ BRAAP: Since the OE efi is not good for anything besides stock I guess I'll invest into getting a programmable efi before I do any serious mods as I do not want to end up like the original poster in that thread you pinpointed me to. In that thread it is mentioned that Mega Squirt is fairly inexpensive if so how inexpensive? Also upon further research I see there are different variants of Mega Squirt, which one is the right one for my N/a application? Can MegaSquirt be installed using wiring diagrams or is there some type of rocket science involved? Lastly, in that thread someone mentions about swapping in a Z31 ecu and tuning it with Nisstune, is that a cheaper alternative to MS? I apologize if these questions have been covered in depth , I appreciate everyone's input. @ 76s30: Yes it's Double Dragon, I'm a huge fan of the series. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
76s30 Posted July 25, 2007 Share Posted July 25, 2007 well the nistune and 300zx maf swap would be the easiest from the tunning aspec, in that nistune can load a base map for the 280zx for you so at ;least when its all installed you don';t have to start from scratch. the installation would also be alot easier than a mega squirt but the mega squirt is cheaper. (if you have to buy all the componets for both) nistune alone was 347 shipped to my buddy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sltn87 Posted July 25, 2007 Author Share Posted July 25, 2007 well the nistune and 300zx maf swap would be the easiest from the tunning aspec, in that nistune can load a base map for the 280zx for you so at ;least when its all installed you don';t have to start from scratch. the installation would also be alot easier than a mega squirt but the mega squirt is cheaper.(if you have to buy all the componets for both) nistune alone was 347 shipped to my buddy. Alright thanks for your response, so basically MegaSquirt is what I'm looking for not MegaSquirtNSpark if I want to retain my distributor correct? Thanks again for baring with me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
naviathan Posted July 25, 2007 Share Posted July 25, 2007 Alright thanks for your response, so basically MegaSquirt is what I'm looking for not MegaSquirtNSpark if I want to retain my distributor correct? Thanks again for baring with me. Yes, a straight MS fuel only ECU would be the cheapest route to go where you want while retaining the stock ignition system. Personally (I'm going through this right now) I'd go ahead and get the MS-II or MSnS-E and run spark. I'm working on an MS-II install into my 81ZX DD and I've learned a ton and made a lot of mistakes. I can build the ECUs all day long, but it seems installing them has really made me scratch. Thankfully with the assistance of others on here and Matt Cramer from DIY Auto Tune I have it figured out and should be up and running shortly (waiting on a new VB921). I've thrown in a header and stage II cam from MSA so although I'm not much over stock I felt better going after market for better response and fuel economy (It's a Daily Driver after all). Once I get this going I'm going to start a quick write up as I used the stock N/A VR distributor to trigger the MS-II. If you have any questions just ask, I've screwed up enough that I've learned what to look out for and what not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
COmputoman Posted July 27, 2007 Share Posted July 27, 2007 I found this thread pretty helpful, as i am also trying to modify my 1982 N/A 280zx to have a little more punch on the gas. I was also looking into an MSA cam. The one thing that concerns me about mega squirt is not having my vehicle for a while and not being able to get to work. Has anyone ever heard of a mega squirt installation that went smoothly and could be accomplished over a weekends time? Im thinking i might have to buy another Z to drive first, that way I will have more time to tune. I am also thinking about soldering the MS togeather. -Ben Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zmanco Posted July 27, 2007 Share Posted July 27, 2007 Going back to your original question, i don't think there is anything cheaper than megasquirt other than remaining with your stock FI (assuming it's in good condition). But to Braap's point, the stock FI is really only good with a stock cam. As for MS, there are several versions of the hardware, and then different versions of the firmware as well. At first it's a bit confusing, but if you spend some uninterupted time on the MS website, I think it will become clear. I just went through this myself with a similar build to what you describe and have been very happy with the outcome. BTW, MSnS can be used for fuel-only and it gives you larger tables for tuning than the stock firmware. Here's a brief summary I put together while it was still fresh in my brain: http://forums.hybridz.org/showthread.php?t=122277 As for price, I spent around $800 by the time I was finished. I was starting with a carb'd 73 so had to buy things (like injectors, high pressure pump, etc) that are already on your car. My guess is you could do it for around $500 give or take $100. FWIW, I started with fuel-only. That was enough new stuff to deal with at one time. I am now getting ready to convert to letting MS control spark. I don't think that it will be all that much extra to do, just need to source the parts. That's part of the beauty of MS - you can bite it off in chunks if you want. Plus, lots of support here and on the MS forums. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zmanco Posted July 27, 2007 Share Posted July 27, 2007 I found this thread pretty helpful, as i am also trying to modify my 1982 N/A 280zx to have a little more punch on the gas. I was also looking into an MSA cam. The one thing that concerns me about mega squirt is not having my vehicle for a while and not being able to get to work. Has anyone ever heard of a mega squirt installation that went smoothly and could be accomplished over a weekends time? Im thinking i might have to buy another Z to drive first, that way I will have more time to tune. I am also thinking about soldering the MS togeather. -Ben I believe Mobythevan did a 1-day install for Proxlamus, but he is pretty experienced with MS. If you have never done an MS install before, I think getting it drivable by the end of a 2 day weekend would be very aggressive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sltn87 Posted July 28, 2007 Author Share Posted July 28, 2007 Yes, a straight MS fuel only ECU would be the cheapest route to go where you want while retaining the stock ignition system. Personally (I'm going through this right now) I'd go ahead and get the MS-II or MSnS-E and run spark. I'm working on an MS-II install into my 81ZX DD and I've learned a ton and made a lot of mistakes. I can build the ECUs all day long, but it seems installing them has really made me scratch. Thankfully with the assistance of others on here and Matt Cramer from DIY Auto Tune I have it figured out and should be up and running shortly (waiting on a new VB921). I've thrown in a header and stage II cam from MSA so although I'm not much over stock I felt better going after market for better response and fuel economy (It's a Daily Driver after all). Once I get this going I'm going to start a quick write up as I used the stock N/A VR distributor to trigger the MS-II. If you have any questions just ask, I've screwed up enough that I've learned what to look out for and what not. Alright thanks, you will probably have your writeup way before I will have my MegaSquirt. I can imagine building the ECU would be the hard part and installing would be the tough part, all in all I believe I'm more than capable of the install. At least I know the difference between a capacitor and a resistor . Going back to your original question, i don't think there is anything cheaper than megasquirt other than remaining with your stock FI (assuming it's in good condition). But to Braap's point, the stock FI is really only good with a stock cam. As for MS, there are several versions of the hardware, and then different versions of the firmware as well. At first it's a bit confusing, but if you spend some uninterupted time on the MS website, I think it will become clear. I just went through this myself with a similar build to what you describe and have been very happy with the outcome. BTW, MSnS can be used for fuel-only and it gives you larger tables for tuning than the stock firmware. Here's a brief summary I put together while it was still fresh in my brain: http://forums.hybridz.org/showthread.php?t=122277 As for price, I spent around $800 by the time I was finished. I was starting with a carb'd 73 so had to buy things (like injectors, high pressure pump, etc) that are already on your car. My guess is you could do it for around $500 give or take $100. FWIW, I started with fuel-only. That was enough new stuff to deal with at one time. I am now getting ready to convert to letting MS control spark. I don't think that it will be all that much extra to do, just need to source the parts. That's part of the beauty of MS - you can bite it off in chunks if you want. Plus, lots of support here and on the MS forums. I guess when you think about it $500 or so isn't bad, about the price to build a custom desktop computer. Wow that's nice how it can control fuel only, I might have to invest in that if I ever decide to go distributor-less. I have a lot of time of my hands to spend on the MS website as well, firmware installs hopefully shouldn't be that bad since since I'm very familiar with them in the computer/hardware world. I appreciate everyone's input, I didn't realize the OE efi was THAT bad, luckily I have my 420a DSM to drive while my s130 is down for the count. I truly believe that these big L28s are more than capable of what I need them to do in the N/a world plus it would be nice to build a high compression s130 and be diffrent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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