ES Bushing problem???

[WizardBlack]

OK, I did a search and found other issues, but not this one. Maybe it isn't a problem. I dunno, you tell me.

I have the Energy Suspension Master Bushing kit for my 280Z. Everything on the front fit up just fine, but the rear has me confused. I have everything laid out as to what fits where so I am sure I have everything lined up for the right spot; it's pretty hard to mix it up.

Anyways, the rear lower control arm inner bushings don't seem right. As I understand it, once you remove the OE bushings (including the outer metal lining by using a saw), the polyurethane slides in and then the metal sleeve pushes in. When the lower control arm is all bolted up to the chassis and the big bolts on each end of the inner side are tightened down, they should snug up on the sleeves which are snugged up to the control arm itself. By this method, it takes all of the fore-aft slack out of the bushings without actually placing the poly bushing in compression. Well, when I installed everything, the sleeves looked about 1/8" too short on both the front end and the rear. I know the front and rear require a matched set of bushings and one end is a tad shorter than the other, but I am sure I have it right. BOTH sides are too short by the same amount anyways. I thought maybe they just need to compress or something and went ahead and bolted the control arms to the chassis, but when I bolt it all up and snug them down, they do indeed compress the poly bushings and the lower control arms are tight. Swiveling them up and down causes the bushing to pivot with the control arm and squeak and they will stay where I move them albeit it doesn't require a lot of muscle to move them. Every setup I've seen allows for the polyurethane portion to stay stationary with the chassis and only the bolt inside the metal sleeve actually pivots. What gives? Did ES send me metal sleeves that aren't long enough? It seems like the poly bushings are compressed a lot before the big control arm bolts actually bottom out on the metal sleeves.

Anyone that can share info would be appreciated. I know I cannot just shorten the two halves of the poly bushings as they are the right length to span the clamshells on the chassis (if anything I think they could've been a tad longer too, but pushing the sleeve in them while they are off the control arms showed the sleeves were still too short).

 

TIA,

Mark

[HizAndHerz]

It's been too long since I installed mine to help you, but you may want to verify you have the right parts by checking the #'s on the bushing with the ones on the parts list.

 

Two of the three master bushing sets I've installed had wrong parts. ES said that it just never happens, but I know of at least two other people that had the wrong mustache bar bushings in their set. ES did send me new parts without me having to send them the bad ones.

[johnc]

You need a longer sleeve.

[zmaster]

longer sleeve would help your problem

[WizardBlack]

Bugger. Where I am going to get such a precise and odd OD and ID sleeve? Should they essentially be the same length as the two halves of the poly bushings?

 

UPDATE: ES has been really cool to give me precise specs on the sleeves so I can measure them (which I am doing right now). They did say there is a tad bit of compression ( 0.030" initial load that lessens over a few weeks).

 

I went and measured the bushings and they fall into spec. If anyone else needs to measure theirs, they are thus:

 

Inner front bushing: 2.450" +/- 0.010"

Inner rear bushing: 2.065" +/- 0.010"

Outer bushings: 1.830" +/- 0.010"

 

They also noted that these are designed to pivot on both the outer and the inner surface of the poly bushings. I dunno, I guess it could've been done otherwise (ID of poly) but it isn't. The one control arm can be pivoted into a position and it will stay there just by the stiction of the bushings. Perhaps that's just a cost for very low compliance in real world manufacturing. It may loosen up some with a few weeks as they said, but I don't like their lube; it seems way too sticky to me.

[WizardBlack]

It's been too long since I installed mine to help you, but you may want to verify you have the right parts by checking the #'s on the bushing with the ones on the parts list.

 

Two of the three master bushing sets I've installed had wrong parts. ES said that it just never happens, but I know of at least two other people that had the wrong mustache bar bushings in their set. ES did send me new parts without me having to send them the bad ones.

 

What was wrong with the moustache bar bushings? Mine seemed like the pin that is mounted to the chassis could wobble inside the bushing a bit. The massive washers that go above and below the poly had holes that allowed for a lot of slop, too.

[HizAndHerz]

What was wrong with the moustache bar bushings?

The bad ones that I am aware of were way too fat to fit inside the moustache bar. Someone looked up the part # and found that they were for a Corvette. It took a full week to get my replacement bushings and I needed my car so I used a hole saw to cut the larger bushings to fit.

[johnc]

Where I am going to get such a precise and odd OD and ID sleeve?

 

http://www.mcmaster.com/ctlg/DisplCtlgPage.aspx?ReqTyp=CATALOG&CtlgPgNbr=2534&CtlgEdition=113&fam=drillbushings&ppe=76&ppr=1&psm=2&psl=6&sesnextrep=9954565761954&ScreenWidth=1024&McMMainWidth=793

 

They are called Drill Bushings.

[MrFancypants]

I had to shave the outer LCA ES bushings in order to get them to fit. They were just a little too thick to press the LCA back in even with lube. The sleeve captured between the hub and the washers on the ends of my homemade spindle pin.

 

 

 

The ES lube seems very sticky but it is better than any multi-purpose grease for suspension bushings. It's basically marine grease and totally repels water.

 

 

 

- Greg -

[WizardBlack]

UPDATE: I measured them and they show precisely what they said they should be. I reassembled everything; this time sanding the clamshells on the chassis that hold the bushings to make sure they are smooth. I also lubed the outside better now that I know they are going to have to be a moving surface. They move quite a bit better and no longer squeak, but they will still (barely) stay up in the air. I think they'll be fine.

 

I looked at the parts again and I think my description was in error. To better (and more correctly) describe the situation. We have the following pieces from outer to inner:

 

1. clamshell on the chassis that holds it together

2. poly bushing provided by ES

3. metal sleeve provided by ES

4. tube on the LCA that has internal threads

5. LCA bolts (those big bolts on the front and rear of the inner pivot axis)

 

Before, I thought that the total installed length of the poly bushing (#2) was longer than the sleeve (#3) that was supplied with it. This would cause it to mushroom a bit when bolted down and essentially rub very hard on the LCA because the compression of the LCA bolts would act through the poly bushing to the surface of the LCA. In actuality, the sleeves are longer than the poly like they should be; or at least they are now. Regardless that doesn't seem to be the problem.

Upon looking at it very carefully, it seems that the tubes that the bolts thread through (#4) are TOO SHORT. As I understand it (or at least by intuition and experience with other cars), the LCA bolt (#5) should screw in and the head of the bolt should bottom out on the tube (#4). That way, none of the compression of the big bolts are acting through the poly bushing or it's metal sleeve (3 and 2). Additionally, the bushing components will therefore stay stationary with the chassis and the LCA tube and LCA bolts will pivot with the suspension and nothing else would. The LCA tube versus the bushing sleeve would be the wearing point as it is metal to metal and can be lubed by antiseize, etc.

The way it works as it is (with the LCA tubes being too short) the LCA bolts bottom out on the bushing sleeve which then bottoms out on the LCA. Since the sleeves are very tight in the poly bushing, when the LCA pivots, the LCA bolts pivot with it (as it should), but the poly and sleeve do as well! The entire assembly essentially moves as one. The wear point is the outer diameter of the poly bushing versus the clamshell on the chassis. I think this is a poor design. Polyurethane was NEVER designed to be a moving/rubbing part. It isn't that hard to design the length of the LCA tubes so that the flange of the bolt head bottoms out on them just before it snugs up the poly/sleeve bushing. This would leave the bushing sleeve's ID as the wear point with the LCA tube inside of them; much like the LCA outer bushings versus the hub with the spindle pins pivoting in the metal sleeves.

I think some of the problem may be ES's since they have the "flange" on all their bushings for "thrust" support which the original parts weren't designed to do IIRC. This adds effective length to the total bushing system and causes part of the problem. The LCA tubes are no longer the correct length to span the increased length of each bushing system. Maybe the ES bushings need the flanges shaved down or removed altogether like the above poster did with the outer LCA? You'd have to shorten the metal sleeves the proper amount as well of course.

The only way that ES got away with this (if this is the case) is because the rear mounting point (clamshell) is mounted to a flimsy vertical sheet metal bracket that is about 10" tall and therefore it can bend away from the front clamshell (which acts as the front diff mount as well) to increase the total length from the rear of the rear bushing to the front of the front bushing.

Any thoughts on this? Am I nuts? Should we cut/trim/machine to get this right or leave it as is? Maybe the speed shops could comment again on this. What would you do if you had an aftermarket moustache bar and all that? No more bending with that to allow it to accomodate the increased length...

[WizardBlack]

I had to shave the outer LCA ES bushings in order to get them to fit. They were just a little too thick to press the LCA back in even with lube. The sleeve captured between the hub and the washers on the ends of my homemade spindle pin.

 

 

 

The ES lube seems very sticky but it is better than any multi-purpose grease for suspension bushings. It's basically marine grease and totally repels water.

 

 

 

- Greg -

 

What did you shave them with to get an accurate cut? I am looking at this problem next...

[WizardBlack]

Another update...

I just put the outer bushings on and had to do the same thing to all four (on each side) for them as well. I found that one of those little metal polishing disks that are about 2" in diameter and have the little quarter turn twist-lok type deal (they look like scotch brite) works very well for a fairly non-accurate method of getting them honed down right. I did all four instead of just the middle two to make sure I don't end up with the same problem.

Also, I looked at the rear clamshell mount; the sheet metal one. It is indeed angled rearward to accomodate the additional length of the pivoting axis due to the bushings. Also, my stock bushings (which were almost 100% intact) are very clearly designed NOT to spin in the clamshell as they aren't round. They have 'ears' on them that stick in to the little crevice on each side of the mating surface on the clamshells.

 

 

On a critical side note; do I REALLY need to install new spindle pin locking pins? Why not just leave them to spin; it only makes for a freer moving suspension. Subaru does the same thing (no locking pin).

[MrFancypants]

What did you shave them with to get an accurate cut? I am looking at this problem next...

 

I started with a utility knife then sanded it smooth with some sandpaper. It's not super critical to make it perfect 90* I dont think. I figure the bushing can rotate around the inner sleeve or the outer LCA can rotate around the bushing.

 

Also, I looked at the rear clamshell mount; the sheet metal one. It is indeed angled rearward to accomodate the additional length of the pivoting axis due to the bushings. Also, my stock bushings (which were almost 100% intact) are very clearly designed NOT to spin in the clamshell as they aren't round. They have 'ears' on them that stick in to the little crevice on each side of the mating surface on the clamshells.

 

Totally lost me there. Are you talking about the rear swaybar?

 

On a critical side note; do I REALLY need to install new spindle pin locking pins? Why not just leave them to spin; it only makes for a freer moving suspension. Subaru does the same thing (no locking pin).

 

You can use a 5/8 Grade 8 bolt:

 

 

I used antiseize all over the bolt shank and plugged the holes in the hub for the locking pins.

 

While on the subject of the rear bushing kit, let me know how you get your rear swaybar in with the new ES bushings -- I have found they are too stiff to even get the endlink bolt threaded. Not sure how Im going to get it to work just yet. Maybe it will be easier with the weight of the car on the rear suspension to get the swaybar angle right first.

 

 

 

- Greg -

[blueovalz]

On a critical side note; do I REALLY need to install new spindle pin locking pins? Why not just leave them to spin; it only makes for a freer moving suspension. Subaru does the same thing (no locking pin).

 

I would consider this (the omission of the locking pin) a bad idea. The fact that you have two steel surfaces constantly moving against each other may be ideal in the very short term, but within time (months, years...who knows) you will have ruined a good strut with no means of repair other than replace, or sleeve.

 

The 5/8" bolt has been discussed previously, and I believe the experience with them has been favorable. With that said, my concern with them is that they are not tight in the pin-boss bore (about .010" clearance), and IMHO, not an ideal replacement when viewed from an engineering reference.

[WizardBlack]

I would consider this (the omission of the locking pin) a bad idea. The fact that you have two steel surfaces constantly moving against each other may be ideal in the very short term, but within time (months, years...who knows) you will have ruined a good strut with no means of repair other than replace, or sleeve.

 

The 5/8" bolt has been discussed previously, and I believe the experience with them has been favorable. With that said, my concern with them is that they are not tight in the pin-boss bore (about .010" clearance), and IMHO, not an ideal replacement when viewed from an engineering reference.

 

Well, as I said, Subaru does the exact same thing. It is metal to metal pivoting which is how most of the factory bushings are. Metal on metal is gonna last better than metal on poly I should think.

 

Bugger, I guess I will reinstall them. I used POR15 on all my suspension pieces and some got down in the locking pin holes. It's a real SOB to get it out.

[WizardBlack]

about the rear swaybar?

- Greg -

 

No, I mean the rear mount for the control arms. It is basically a vertical piece of sheet metal with the top end bent into a 90 degree angle to bolt to the chassis. The bottom end is also bent 90 degrees and becomes half of the clamshell that holds the rear inner bushing for each control arm.

 

Regarding the swaybars. I already had ES endlinks on the car when I bought it. The previous user had replaced the bolts with similar ones that were about 1" longer. That's the ONLY way I could see to do it. As far as swaybar bushings; I dunno on that one. The car has Suspension Techniques swaybars and bushings on it.

 

Methinks we should append some info to a sticky regarding what people are in for if they want to buy a master kit and install it.

[MrFancypants]

I would consider this (the omission of the locking pin) a bad idea. The fact that you have two steel surfaces constantly moving against each other may be ideal in the very short term, but within time (months, years...who knows) you will have ruined a good strut with no means of repair other than replace, or sleeve.

 

The way I look at it, you are supposed to put the weight of the car on the bolt shank before tightening the ends. Then you capture the ES sleeves between the washers and the bolt cannot move. By your logic you would also be worried about the inner sleeves inside the bushings, but they do not move once captured by the bolt.

 

 

 

- Greg -

[MrFancypants]

No, I mean the rear mount for the control arms. It is basically a vertical piece of sheet metal with the top end bent into a 90 degree angle to bolt to the chassis. The bottom end is also bent 90 degrees and becomes half of the clamshell that holds the rear inner bushing for each control arm.

 

Now I understand what youre talking about. Same thing on these -- the bushings are meant to be able to rotate both within their mount and around the inner sleeve. The stock bushings would have to either rotate inside the "clamshell" or flex between the sleeve and the rubber because the inner sleeve is pressed onto the control arm. I dont recall the stock bushings being elliptical, but if they are that would restrict all of the motion to flex of the rubber! The ES design is very smooth moving once greased up and installed.

 

Regarding the swaybars. I already had ES endlinks on the car when I bought it. The previous user had replaced the bolts with similar ones that were about 1" longer. That's the ONLY way I could see to do it. As far as swaybar bushings; I dunno on that one. The car has Suspension Techniques swaybars and bushings on it.

 

Yeah that might be what I have to do if I cant get it on while the suspension is compressed.

 

Methinks we should append some info to a sticky regarding what people are in for if they want to buy a master kit and install it.

 

Good idea!

 

 

 

- Greg -

[HizAndHerz]

Regarding the swaybars. I already had ES endlinks on the car when I bought it. The previous user had replaced the bolts with similar ones that were about 1" longer.

I've installed ES master kits a number of times, and the end links are a pain. I use a big C-clamp to bring the sway bar and control arm closer together along with some vise grips to keep the C-clamp from sliding around. Makes that job a lot easier.