dsommer Posted October 17, 2007 Share Posted October 17, 2007 Finally ordered it from Scott at DynoFlo performance in Henderson, NV. What I ordered: Eagle 4340 Forged Steel Steel Internal balance 2pc rear main seal 3.75†crank Mahle Forged Racing Pistons 11:1 compression ratio all Mahle Pistons in this kit are Phosphate Dipped and Teflon Coated 6†Eagle ESP 4340 Forged Steel H Beam Rods with ARP 8740 Bolts Mahle Moly Racing Performance Ring Set King Race Bearings Rods and Main ARP main studs ARP head studs Balanced Block is at the machine shop waiting for the arrival of the pistons (kit) going .040 over on am 010 high nickel block. Trickflow heads, roller rockers, Comp mech roller cam, gear drive cam, Torker intake with direct nitrous injection (hidden under intake) 100 hp "shot". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grumpyvette Posted October 17, 2007 Share Posted October 17, 2007 sounds nice,what cam,PART#?? rear gear ratio ?, trans ? and IF its an auto...whats the converter stall speed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blueovalz Posted October 17, 2007 Share Posted October 17, 2007 I'm going to ride the coat tails of this string (please forgive me). My 383 is a Ford motor, but the fuel won't be able to differentiate between the two. Perhaps a two-for-one from Gumpy's much respected knowledge. Same Eagle crank specs Probe forged pistons (I believe it is the same or a comparable piston, but I had a shallow 3" dish cut in them to reduce the CR to 10.3) 6.25" Eagle H-beam rods of same material and bolts ARP main studs Canton Main girdle (not sure it this was needed, but...) ARP head studs 9 quart pan with HV oil pump AFR 205cc heads, 1 3/4" tubular headers, Solid roller cam 265º (should be edited to 246/256) at .050" and 110º separation, and .640 lift (hope that's right being it's from memory), 780 DP on Victor JR intake. This intake is also set up for EFI, so my plan is to get it running first with the carb, then install 40 lb injectors with a simple EFI set-up (SDS or MS, and most likely Alpha-N) 4:11 gearing, WC-T5 (2.98......080 ratio first and last). G-force enhancements will most likely be required, but they are not ordered as yet. I thought about the TKO, but there would be too many changes required. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dsommer Posted October 17, 2007 Author Share Posted October 17, 2007 sounds nice,what cam,PART#??rear gear ratio ?, trans ? and IF its an auto...whats the converter stall speed There are lies, damn lies and statistics Holley Throttle Body Injection (TBI) 900 CFM TB 85 lb/hr injectors Support up to 550 HP Intake Edelbrock Torker (not Torker II) intake which has been thermal coated and had “hidden†direct port nitrous injection (under intake) for 100HP “shot†Rear end Rear end is LSD independent suspension with upgraded cv axels gear ratio is 3.70:1 Transmission Will upgrade my current trans to the G-force spec trans below. What I currently have World Class (Borg Warner) T-5 Gear ratios 1st 3.35 2nd 1.99 3rd 1.33 4th 1.00 5th 0.68 G-force rear ratios: 1st 2.94 2nd 1.94 3rd 1.34 4th 1.00 5th .59 or .73 From the G-force web site Normally the stock T-5 is rated at about 300 ft-lb of torque capacity. While this is fine for stock or lightly modified engine combinations, especially running small street tires, it isn't generally enough for most of today's high powered street/strip engine combinations, especially those running bigger, more aggressive tires. This is where the G-Force Street 5-Speed kit comes into play. Although we do not like to put torque or horsepower ratings on our products due to the vast differences in clutch, engine, chassis, tire, and mounting combinations, we can give a very rough estimate. There are simply too many variables to consider when trying to figure out how much power or torque a transmission will take in a particular application. Generally, it can be assumed that with the available upgraded mainshaft, the G-Force Street 5-Speed kit will handle roughly 600 hp or 500 ft-lb. or torque in a 3300 lb. vehicle running drag radials at the track with a moderate clutch upgrade. Obviously this is just a rough estimate regarding the power and torque handling capability, but it should give some idea as to what the G-Force Street 5-Speed kit will handle in your particular application. Our Street 5-Speed kits are currently available with the preferred 2.94, 1.94, 1.34, 1.00 ratios in gears 1 thru 4, and because most performance enthusiasts run a relatively steep rear gear, our synchronized kit utilizes a .59 overdrive. This is slightly taller than the stock .68 or .63 ratio and allows the engine to turn less RPM at cruising speed. This equates to less engine wear and better gas mileage while still maintaining incredible acceleration in the first 4 gears - amazing! We are currently working on more ratios for both kits, including a special dog-ring-only road race ratio. Camshaft Specification Table//CAM CARD Part Number 12-769-8 Engine 1955-1998 Chevrolet 262ci-400ci 8cyl. Grind Number CS XR268 R-10 Description Intake Exhaust Valve Adjustment 0.016 0.018 Gross Valve Lift 0.552 0.564 Duration At 0.015 Tappet Lift 268 274 Valve Timing At 0.015 Open Close Intake 28 60 Exhaust 71 23 These Specs Are For The Cam Installed At 106 Intake CL Intake Exhaust Duration At 0.05 230 236 Lobe Lift 0.368 0.376 Lobe Separation 110 Recommended Valve Springs 977-16 Scorpion billet roller rockers 1.5 ratio (consider 1.6 on exhaust side??) Trick Flow push rods (.010 longer) Trick Flow Heads Part number TFS 30400002 specs: Cylinder Head Style: Assembled Cylinder Head Material: Aluminum Cylinder Head Finish: Natural Combustion Chamber Volume (cc): 62 CNC Machined Combustion Chamber: No Intake Runner Volume (cc): 195cc Exhaust Runner Volume (cc): 75cc CNC Machined Intake Runner: No CNC Machined Exhaust Runner: No Intake Port Shape: Rectangular Intake Port Location: Standard Exhaust Port Shape: D-port Exhaust Port Location: Standard Spark Plug Style: Angle Intake Valves Included: Yes Intake Valve Diameter (in): 2.020 in. Exhaust Valves Included: Yes Exhaust Valve Diameter (in): 1.600 in. Valve Springs Included: Yes Maximum Valve Lift (in): 0.540 in. Outside Diameter of Outer Spring (in): 1.470 in. Damper Spring Included: Yes Number of Springs Per Valve: Single Retainers Included: Yes Retainer Material: Chromemoly steel Locks Included: Yes Lock Style: 7 degree Valve Stem Seals Included: Yes Valve Stem Seal Style: Viton® fluoroelastomer Rocker Arm Studs Included: Yes Rocker Arm Nut Thread Size: 3/8-24 in. Rocker Arms Included: No Rocker Arm Nuts Included: No Guideplates Included: Yes Guideplate Pushrod Size: 5/16 in. Valve Cover Mounting Style: Perimeter bolt Accessory Bolt Holes Drilled: Yes Intake Valve Angle: 23 Exhaust Valve Angle: 23 Valve Guides Included: Yes Valve Guide Material: Manganese bronze Valve Seats Machined: Yes Valve Seat Machine Style: 3-angle Valve Seat Material: Tungsten Steam Holes Drilled: No Oiling Style: Through pushrod Machined for O-Ring: No Heat Crossover: Yes Quantity: Sold as a pair. Notes: Will not fit centerbolt-style intake manifolds. Hooker Headers Stuck with these due to X-member and steering shaft interference Header Material: Steel Header Finish: Ceramic coated Header Style: Shorty Primary Tube Diameter (in): 1 5/8 in. Collector Attachment: 3-bolt flange Collector Diameter (in): 2.500 in. Tuned: Yes Primary Tube Gauge: 18-gauge Flange Style: Standard Flange Thickness (in): 5/16 in. Remainder of exhaust flows into 2.5†pipes into 3†pipe super flow type single muffler. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blueovalz Posted October 17, 2007 Share Posted October 17, 2007 Dang, I need to finish this project, drive up to Rogers (or are you not living there any more) and "run em". Sounds neck and neck (on motor only!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jt1 Posted October 17, 2007 Share Posted October 17, 2007 Dave, is that one of the Comp cams ground on a cast core? If so, I've had two and haven't been impressed with the durability, both showed a lot of wear quickly, and I'm using the 977 springs at 1.850, so no massive pressures. My next one is going to be something different. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dsommer Posted October 17, 2007 Author Share Posted October 17, 2007 Dave, is that one of the Comp cams ground on a cast core? If so, I've had two and haven't been impressed with the durability, both showed a lot of wear quickly, and I'm using the 977 springs at 1.850, so no massive pressures. My next one is going to be something different. John I believe so. (not a billet unit) I haven't driven the 240 car with that cam in it very much, heck I don't drive any of my Datsuns (Scarab or 240) much at all. So no clue on the wear. What brand lifters were/are you running? Terry, It'll be a while before this gets on the steet but when it does we'll get together, yeah I'm still in Rogers. What kind of torque are you putting out? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grumpyvette Posted October 17, 2007 Share Posted October 17, 2007 just some observations dsommer your real close, but the dynamic cprs on the high side, Id bet youll need to retard the cam about 4 degrees to lower the dynamic cpr just a bit, if your running average street/pump high test, and youll need to be very carefull about the octane, and ignition advance curve rate, engine temp. to stay out of detonation, but I bet its torquey and has great responce and power, its very similar to my vettes engine combo, and Ive got to be very careful about the octane especially on the giggle gas BTW you DID NOTICE the VALVE SPRINGS on the cylinder head are listed as a .540 MAX lift and even with the 1.5 ratio rockers youir over that...with 1.6:1 rockers youll be closer to .601 lift?? and please check the piston to valve clearance carefully every 5 degrees for 25 degrees each side of TDC, and check the quench/squish is in the .038-.042 range, it may help reduce detonation "Gross Valve Lift 0.552 0.564 Maximum Valve Lift (in):clearance 0.540 in." blueovalz you went the other route a bit MORE than ideal durration,on the cam, youll be giving up some low and mid rpm torque due to alittle more cam than ideal for the combo, Id bet the combo would be slightly better with just a bit less durration, something closer to 250 @ .050 lift on the intake you gentelmen may want to play with these http://www.crower.com/misc/valve_timing_chart.html http://cochise.uia.net/pkelley2/DynamicCR.html http://www.kb-silvolite.com/calc.php?action=comp2 http://www.wallaceracing.com/dynamic-cr.php http://www.diamondracing.net/cocalc.htm please let me know if IM wrong or correct, as you tune/test each combo,as I keep an extensive data base and can always use more first hand info Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blueovalz Posted October 17, 2007 Share Posted October 17, 2007 Thanks for the appraisal!! The dynamic CR calculator was really nice. I put my correct values in it (finally have the card in front of tme and the duration is a good bit less than the post before. At .050", the duration is 246 and 256 (I/E). According to the calculator (49º ABDC close), this nets to a dynamic 9.05 CR. Now to search around and find out how this number relates to the real world performance on pump gas. Using my cam card, at .050", the overlap is 31º (17 BTDC + 13 ATDC) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grumpyvette Posted October 17, 2007 Share Posted October 17, 2007 "At .050", the duration is 246 and 256 (I/E). According to the calculator (49º ABDC close), this nets to a dynamic 9.05 CR." whats the cam card say the timing is at .050 lift and the timing,? if its the 49 degrees as I suspect,it is at .050 lift youll need to add about 13-15 degrees too each open and closing degree point at .050 lift figures to get seat timing when the valve ACTUALLY opens, or if you have the .004-.006 you can use those, Id bet your TRUE DYNAMIC CPR is a good bit LOWER than 9.05:1 use all three calculators, CAREFULLY FOLLOWING THE INSTRUCTIONS and average the results http://cochise.uia.net/pkelley2/DynamicCR.html http://www.kb-silvolite.com/calc.php?action=comp2 http://www.wallaceracing.com/dynamic-cr.php Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jt1 Posted October 18, 2007 Share Posted October 18, 2007 What brand lifters were/are you running? I'm using the base comp roller lifters, not the high line (endurex?) ones. They are several years old (6 or 7) and I've had no issues at all with them, despite seeing a lot of abuse. Don't worry about the hookers too much. Mark's car makes some big numbers with them. His torque curve makes mine look like a voltage spike. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blueovalz Posted October 18, 2007 Share Posted October 18, 2007 Yep, it appears to be about 8.2. Nice information and now kinda gives me an idea that the motor should be ok, and that I've avoided making a poor choice in parts. As always, they could be improved, but these numbers look better than I assumed for what I wanted. Thanks again Grumpy! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pparaska Posted October 18, 2007 Share Posted October 18, 2007 grumpy - you mentioned that DCR should be calculated as to when the valves actually closes. Since Comp gives durations for 3 lift points in the beginning and middle of the curve (.015", .050", .200" tappet lift) for those lobes (4872 and 4873, Int/Exh, respectively), you can fit a curve to the data, take account of the lash at the lifter when the spec'd lash is set at the valve, and come up with an estimate of what the true opening and closing points of the valves will be. I come up with about 273/279 duration at the actual open/close points, using a quadratic curve fit, and lash of 0.010667" and 0.012" respectively at the tappet (assuming a 1.5:1 rocker), an Intake valve closing event at about 63 degrees, and overlap of about 56 degrees. You estimated adding 13 to 15 degrees to the IVC using the .050" duration numbers (which actually is at 41 degrees for the 230 duration, 110 LSA, 4 deg advance), so you're estimate would be 54 to 56 degrees, 7 to 9 degrees less than my estimate shows. I'm not say I'm more correct or you are. After all, at what point near the actual seat timing does the flow really start to matter enough to affect DCR, overlap, etc. Probably something close to that area you or I are estimating. I'd LOVE to know if someone's ever figured out a good way of calculating, spec'ing a cam's Intake Valve Closing point for use with DCR calculators, or for calculating overlap values that should be used for comparison between cams and for gaging the "streetability" of a cam. If anyone is interested, I'll clean up and document my Excel spreadsheet (which shows a trick for calculating the coefficients of polynomials for other than linear curve fits, among other things) and post it. But those cams are a far site milder than the one in my 406 at the moment, and I'd say my cam (probably 10 degrees too large on duration and therefore overlap) is not smooth in the 406 until about 2500 rpm. The cam David has chosen looks plenty mild for street use, IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blueovalz Posted October 18, 2007 Share Posted October 18, 2007 Good comments Pete. My high-strung 289 made good power (for its size), but it was all above 4500 RPM (peaked at 7200). The cam I chose for this project is looking at power from the other side of the continuum. With this cam, I'm looking for as much area under the torque curve (high avg torque) as is possible, while keeping peak power somewhere in the 6K range. Actually, this cam, and the one in the 289 are very similar with the exception of the lobe spacing (112º for the 289, and 110º for the 383). After reading the links, my conclusion was the only way to truely find the dynamic stroke was to actually use a degree wheel and measure where the valve actually seats. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grumpyvette Posted October 18, 2007 Share Posted October 18, 2007 pparaska your forceing me to think back to college,to those horriable math classes I needed to pass, keep in mind when I was in college we still used SLIDE RULES and pocket calculators were not invented and a computer took up the whole first floor of the building we were in and took several operators with punch cards Ive always felt (rightly or wrongly) that your flow starts being a valid factor in maintaining the cpr at about .006-.008 lift, below that the time available and area in the valves curtain due to RAPID movement is basically meaningless in the big picture, keep in mind at idle rpms (about 900rpm in my case) the cam fully opens and closes the valves 7.5 times a second, that last .006-.008 in the ramp on the lobe takes an almost unmeasurable, in practical terms .0014 seconds or less now to ther pragmatic approach, Im running this cam currently, in my 11:1 cpr 383 http://www.cranecams.com/?show=browseParts&action=partSpec&partNumber=119661&lvl=2&prt=5 compare it to your sellection, I can tell you the power on a 200hp hit of nitrous is awesume, I break drivetrain parts frequently, DETONATION IS a problem unless I retard the timing and use octane boosters with the nitrous, off nitrous I still need high test and If I advance the total timing to more than about 37 degrees I get into detonation, and thats WITH a bunch done to limit the engines tendency to detonate, but ITS darn responsive and makes good power, so its a ballancing act/compromise Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dsommer Posted October 18, 2007 Author Share Posted October 18, 2007 So do I need different valve springs? Would I need to machine the spring seats for larger diameter springs or could the current springs be shimmed? Piston to valve clearance, if the block has NOT been zero decked I should have a little extra clearance or not? What would you recommend doing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grumpyvette Posted October 18, 2007 Share Posted October 18, 2007 "What would you recommend doing?" talk to TRICKFLOW AND CRANE,CROWER as they will know the answers and may know a quick fix. IN my case I would sellect a set of BEEHIVE springs and titanium retainers and install offset valve locks that move the clearance out to an extra .050 and have a machine shop cut the spring seat about .060 but , you need to make sure the seat,full lift pressures are correct and the spring bind heights/clearancers remain in spec. a good machine shop can easily fix you up after you get the correct springs retainers and valve locks, and in many cases you won,t need to do anything but swap the new correct springs retainers and valve locks,onto the heads...in some cases just swapping retaines and valve locks and shimming the spring may solve the clearance issues if its a retainer to valve guide rather than a spring bind issue...a good machine shop and carefull measurement are the keys theres info here that may help,the links hold a good deal of info, http://www.racingsprings.com/PDF/beehive.pdf http://www.digitalcorvettes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=86226 http://www.digitalcorvettes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=81001 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pparaska Posted October 18, 2007 Share Posted October 18, 2007 pparaska your forceing me to think back to college,to those horriable math classes I needed to pass, keep in mind when I was in college we still used SLIDE RULES and pocket calculators were not invented and a computer took up the whole first floor of the building we were in and took several operators with punch cards LOL!!! I started programming on a Univac 1160, using punch cards . I used a slide rule in middle school, a simple calculator in high school and an HP-15C in college. I guess I'm a bit younger than you, but not by much! Today, you can do so much with simple stuff like Excel on a PC. I use Perl, C, FORTRAN, Matlab too, but for quick stuff, Excel is preferred! Ive always felt (rightly or wrongly) that your flow starts being a valid factor in maintaining the cpr at about .006-.008 lift, below that the time available and area in the valves curtain due to RAPID movement is basically meaningless in the big picture, keep in mind at idle rpms (about 900rpm in my case) the cam fully opens and closes the valves 7.5 times a second, that last .006-.008 in the ramp on the lobe takes an almost unmeasurable, in practical terms .0014 seconds or less now to ther pragmatic approach, Im running this cam currently, in my 11:1 cpr 383 http://www.cranecams.com/?show=browseParts&action=partSpec&partNumber=119661&lvl=2&prt=5 compare it to your sellection, I can tell you the power on a 200hp hit of nitrous is awesume, I break drivetrain parts frequently, DETONATION IS a problem unless I retard the timing and use octane boosters with the nitrous, off nitrous I still need high test and If I advance the total timing to more than about 37 degrees I get into detonation, and thats WITH a bunch done to limit the engines tendency to detonate, but ITS darn responsive and makes good power, so its a ballancing act/compromise Well, the 0.006 to 0.008" off the seat for a useful number for when these timing numbers should be taken for low rpm assessments (DCR calculation, idle quality, low rpm character with respect to overlap, etc.) certainly sounds reasonable to me. Like you point out, there's very little going on from the time the valve starts losing or starts making contact with the seat and the time that flow starts to any appreciable amount after it loses contact during opening or before it makes contact with the seat as it closes. I like that idea and will see how the figures in to the cams I've dealt with as far as realized duration and overlap. Assuming a rigid valvetrain, of course. That could be an issue with higher rpm running, but for low rpm, I think the rigid valvetrain assumption if fairly safe. Vizard told me that his "Overlap Estimator" (See page 62 in his Popular Hotrodding article http://www.compcams.com/Community/Articles/Details.asp?ID=-2026144213) was to be used for timing numbers in light of seat timing. For hydraulic lifters, something close to the advertised duration at 0.004 or 0.006" tappet lift is probably what he would use. Assuming that he is assuming something like the 0.006" to 0.008" off the seat number for tappet lift to measure duration (and therefore overlap), then his guidelines for overlap selection should hold true to numbers that we can find (be nice to have a Cam Doctor!!!) or estimate with math for the various lobes available to us. The math and estimation is really probably only critical for those of us that use solid lifter cams. But that's where my difficulty begins - what duration numbers to use to calculate overlap (of vice versus - what overlap to pic to calculate duration, once you've selected a lobe separation angle) to use the guidelines like he has in that article. David, I'm quite interested to hear how the engine idles and performs with that cam - please keep us updated! Hopefully the spring/retainer swap out Grumpyvette is talking about will get you where you need to be with clearances. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grumpyvette Posted October 18, 2007 Share Posted October 18, 2007 reguarding the dcr calcs http://www.cranecams.com/?show=browseParts&action=partSpec&partNumber=119661&lvl=2&prt=5 when you have the .004-.006 lift figures provided on the cam card, (like this above) you can use those that were provided, if not adding 13-15 degrees to each of the opening and closeing points gets you into the ball park. when you don,t http://www.crower.com/misc/valve_timing_chart.html this can help you may want to remember that the ramp on the cam lobe tends to be far more gradual at first, to change accelleration rates rapidly on the initial opening and final closing parts to avoid valve seat bounce or excessive accelleration rates. and that roller cams have potentially a much faster ramp rate. theres not much flow thru a valve durring the first couple of thousands of lift durring the couple of ten thousands of a second as it leaves the seat or returns to the seat, theres just not enought time or area between the head and valve or enought time. crane and crower take this to extremes at times to insure smooth lower stress and quite valve train operation, lunati, and comp cams have some designs that use faster rates , and are known for noisier valve trains, they of course point out the minor improvement in the area under the curve in flow rates at the expence of a lower life expectancy on the valve train, personally I prefer to give up a couple hp for less problems and longer engine life expectancy. theres not much sence in building an engine for peak hp when youll spend 99.999% of the time in lower rpm range when your building a street car and the differance is a couple hp vs thousands of extra miles between refreshing/replacing parts. think about it. you probable get into a couple seconds worth of hold it to the floor, at over 6000-7000rpm engine races a year vs thousands of miles and months of spirited driving at slightly less than peak power, so it only makes sence to build for durability in a street combo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dsommer Posted November 1, 2007 Author Share Posted November 1, 2007 GOOD NEWS ON TWO FRONTS!!!! First my rotating assembly came in, well the crank is still in transit but on it's way, arriving today or tomorrow. The better news is that I called Summit Racing to verify what heads I purchased back in 2001 and to my suprise I've got the correct springs in the heads, they are the part number TFS-30400003 (not 30400002 like I thought). Here are the specs: Maximum Valve Lift (in):0.600 in. Outside Diameter of Outer Spring (in):1.460 in. So I'm moving forward!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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