ktm Posted November 6, 2007 Share Posted November 6, 2007 After posting my first thread (Here), I went out to the garage whilst people responded and pulled the head. The attached photos shows the carnage. However, I see NO signs of a cracked head and NO signs of a damaged head gasket. The last conclusion is a warped head. Thoughts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slownrusty Posted November 6, 2007 Share Posted November 6, 2007 Bo - Did you have your engine rebuilt before you did your Wolf EFI conversion? A warped head would only be caused by experiencing high Cyl. Head Temps? It would be interesting to see what your machinist has to say...Did you try running a feller gauge on the head with the head resting on a piece of glass or perfectly flat plate steel? Sorry to hear...sucks! Regards - Yasin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktm Posted November 6, 2007 Author Share Posted November 6, 2007 The engine was not rebuilt but rather it was a good used engine. Compression numbers right after the install were 145 to 150 across the board. I did have a few periods of running elevated (212 to 220) temperatures due to a failure of my electric fan circuit, but these were very short periods. I find it strange that all of my cylinders caused coolant to overflow out the radiator, yet my compression numbers were 120 - 135, with #3 at 150. As you can see, #3 is the cylinder with the most coolant! A warped head should result in lower compression numbers. A blown HG usually affects one or two cylinders. Ah well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted November 6, 2007 Share Posted November 6, 2007 Pull the cam and take it to a machine shop. I don't think glass is flat enough to check and the chances of having a completely flat piece of steel larger than a straight 6 head is pretty minimal. Checking for warp takes all of about 2 minutes, they just lay a straight edge across the deck and see if there is a gap anywhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators BRAAP Posted November 6, 2007 Administrators Share Posted November 6, 2007 Bo, Some of the pics are a bit blurry, flash spots in a couple areas hiding small sections, the block is hard to make on the spark plug side, though in what I can tell from those pics, as you said, everything looks to be fine, i.e. the fire ring in-print on the head doesn’t "appear" to have been compromised. Regarding warped heads, if the coolant leaks/spewing that you were experiencing were from a warped head, it is the warping of the head that allows the head gaskets seal to be compromised, i.e. blown head gasket. Can you post up some clear pics of the head gasket, both sides? Possibly three cylinders at time for a good close up? Also include some close ups of the block, 3 cylinders at time? The more I look at the block on the spark plug side there might be signs of compromised gasket seal.. It is too hard to make out in these pics,… Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktm Posted November 6, 2007 Author Share Posted November 6, 2007 Paul, I will take some more photos later today when I get home from work. Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktm Posted November 7, 2007 Author Share Posted November 7, 2007 More photos. Unfortunately, the photos of the head are AFTER I wiped it down. I wiped it down last night. Paul, I believe I see the area you are referring to on the block near the plug side on #3. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators BRAAP Posted November 7, 2007 Administrators Share Posted November 7, 2007 Bo, Okie dokie. With this set of pics, the whole situation is becoming more clear.. Short version. "Detonation!!!!" You had enough detonation to “lift†the head off the block allowing the head gasket to release its seal and enough cylinder pressure from said detonation to deform the gasket. Long version. The head; The head is not really forth coming with info, though it is telling us a little bit. Carbon deposits all look normal, though in the first set of pics, chambers #2,3,4, the valve heads are completely wet, more so than would be normal if a little coolant drained out of the head during removal. In the new set of pics, it much more apparent that the fire ring had “slid†on the manifold side of all the cylinders, more so for cylinders #2 and 5, at least that I can tell with these pics. Block; The Block is telling us bit more information. It was mentioned that you did drain the entire cooling system including the block, of all coolant before removing the head, yet in your first set of pics, cylinder #3 has a lot of coolant in it, even if you didn’t thoroughly drain the cooling system, that is quite a bit. In the new set of pics, Cyl #2, 3, 4, 5, and 6, the fire ring seal was compromised on the spark plug side of the block. On the manifold side of the block, note how the fire ring appears to be wider and shiny. Hmmm.. Fire ring was sliding across the deck surface, hence the wider/shinier spots. Most notably for cylinders 2, 3, 5, and 6. Also note how much cleaner the pistons are in cyl #3 and 4. I realize you wiped them down, but I’m assuming you wiped them all down equally, and being as #3 and #4 were consuming more coolant than the rest, the carbon came off much easier. When water/coolant is introduced into the combustion chamber of a running engine over a period of time, it will de-carbon those cylinders. In your case it hadn’t been very long as the chambers in the head still have their carbon deposits. The head gasket; Now this part is telling us pretty much everything we need to know as to “what†happened. The pics are a bit fuzzy but it is quite clear especially for cylinder #3 and #6, that the fire ring is egg shaped, not round as they should be. Your engine experienced detonation strong enough to lift the head off of the block enough that the gasket was literally blowing out from the excessive cylinder pressure and deformed the fire ring. This compromised the seal of the gasket in multiple areas allowing coolant into the cylinders. You were lucky not to hydraulic lock the engine when trying to fire it up after it blew originally. Being as you did not overheat the engine, your head more than likely is not warped, though I strongly recommend that you do take the head to a machine shop as Jon mentioned above and have it checked to be sure. Here is an extreme example of what you experienced. This one not only blew the gasket, but also busted all the piston ring lands as well. Based on what I see from your pics, and so long as the detonation was not prolonged, and the fact that you are using stock head bolts, stock head gasket, etc, your detonation was mild enough that your pistons "should" be ok. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktm Posted November 7, 2007 Author Share Posted November 7, 2007 Ron said that you were da' man! when it came to forensic analyses of engine failures. I was fighting detonation on the dyno, and I was probably detonating before the dyno. This is my project car so I have not had a chance to drive it much (fortunately or unfortunately), but your analysis is spot on with my observations. Is there any way to check the ringlands with the pistons in the block? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
proxlamus© Posted November 7, 2007 Share Posted November 7, 2007 whos engine is that with the headgasket like that?! they were running a Holset turbo! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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