Intake mani porting...too much for a newb?

[garvice]

monzter, that looks awesome, well done.

[Calgary280ZT]

Thanks guys, great advice!

 

Tony, hearkening back to your commnts on zcar about making the engine breathe better being a first priority, my plan or this stage of my mods is to limit my boost to 10 psi and do as much as I can to increase flow and see how much power I can make. Once I've achieved that goal, I need to upgrade suspension, brakes, etc. to handle more power. Then I'll go back to the engine and install EDIS, meth injection, fuel pump(s), etc so that I've got pretty good control of spark and detonation. THEN I'll start to turn the boost up and see what it can make for power.

 

Getting back to the intake: Tony and primer&rust, I'm thinking of just smoothing out the runner rather than trying to enlarge them. That will probably meet my short-term goals for low $$. Then when I finish my other mods and I'm ready to make serious hp, I could spring for a custom intake.

 

On the other hand, Monzter, I may have a guy who can weld aluminum. And JimCanuck has a spare manifold I can play with. So depending on time (in awfully short supply this spring/summer) I may take a crack at cutting off the runners and going to town on the porting. The worst I can do is a crappy job on the spare mani and have to go back to my stock one or buy Lonewolf's ported Nissan mani...and more on that in next post.

[Calgary280ZT]

I emailed Lonewolf for flow data on their Nissan heads and this is the reply I got:

 

We offer to levels of porting on the nissan intakes. The first one invloves porting of the runners and TB opening and getting as far into the runners as possible. The second option invloves cutting the plenum off and porting the manifold from both sides of the runner to do a much more thorough job. We've been able to pick up over 90cfm on each runner when flowed individually. The bottle neck lies in the TB opening. You can only make it so big due to limitations to the neck of the manfold. We flowed a stock intake, a option one ported intake and then a cut apart and ported intake but we recently moved and I'm not able to find the flow data. I do remember that we picked very significant flow when the intake was cut apart and ported. It was around 270cfm per runner after porting. If I'm able to find my records, I'll let you know and e-mail them to you.

 

Mark: What he didn't say is if the option 2 (cut the runners off) was the $350 option quoted on the web. I'm going to guess not, for that price. If it is, I think I'll jump on that option. Much cheaper than their custom intake at $700...or maybe I'll choose DYI we'll see about $$ and time.

[Calgary280ZT]

Well, they same timing is everything...James from Lonewolf just sent this email:

 

The basic porting is $150. Option 2, which is obviously much more involved, would cost $350. I t would also have a slightly longer turn around time. We don't do our welding in house and so when it's porrted it will be dropped off with our welding shop and usually takes a few days there.

 

$350 for the full port job sounds pretty reasonable to me if the manifold gets the flow #s he claimed in his email. Looks like I've found the answer to my question...but certainly learned a lot in the process. Thanks for the input guys.

 

Hope to see some of you at MSA...

[510six]

If I was going to port a stock intake the non EGR N42 would be the one to use. The non EGR N42 manifold on my setup was cut apart , ported and welded back together .It was then ceramic coated inside and out , so far the intake has flowed well enough to make 430 rwh before the clutch slipped on the dyno.

 

http://www.techlinecoatings.com/TechnicalInformation.htm

 

[Calgary280ZT]

510six, how much did it cost for the ceramic coating? Do you think the increase in flow/decrease in friction is worth it?

 

If Lonewolf can make 270 cfm per runner for $350 worth of porting, that's probably as much $$ as I'd invest in the intake manifold. God knows there's no shortage of $$ to be spent other places...LOL

[510six]

My engine builder has used the Techline ceramic coating and dry film lubricant to most of the internal parts of the engine. I used a bottle of CBX coating that a friend had given me to coat the inside and outside of the manifold, I used a modified airbrush and a small gravity feed touch up spray gun to apply the coating. The manifold was then baked and polished with 000 steel wool.

http://www.techlinecoatings.com/TechnicalInformation.htm

 

I don`t have any comparative dyno numbers to prove the worth of the coatings, what I do notice is that the motor cools down much faster than without the coatings.I did use a laser thermometer and the coated intake manifold was about 40* cooler than a friends turbo motor with uncoated intake and exhaust manifolds , the heat shield was coated as well.This was after a very spirited drive.

 

 

 

[Calgary280ZT]

Monzter, nice looking job. Actually, I have been looking for someone in Calgary to weld aluminum, so far no luck. May have to go to a shop...which is really pricey here. Oil patch has welding and machine shops hopping, so if you want one off custom stuff like this they hose you through the nose. I was thinking of cutting the runners off, but slicing open the plenum like you did would - I think - be easier to weld back up. Food for thought....

[Calgary280ZT]

Here are some quotes from the Techline coatings link 510six quote above:

 

Typically, a normally asperated engine will see a 1% improvement in power for every 10 degree drop in carb air inlet temperature. A Turbo charged engine will see a 2% increase. Keeping the manifold cooler than normal allows an engine to generate more horse power.

 

You can also coat the inside of the runners in an intake manifold. You can use 1 or 2 coatings. A single coating that we recommend would be our dry film ( DFL-1, TLML or CERMA LUBE ). These are known as 'fluid retaining coatings' and the fuel/air mix as it passes through an intake manifold on a carburated engine is treated like a 'fluid in motion'. The coating will have a tendency to create a small amount of boundry layer turbulance which will reduce fuel drop-out. You may also apply a thermal barrier to the inside of a runner first, then the dry film over it. If you're doing this, we recommend using our TLLB with TLML over the top of it. You not only create the boundry layer turbulance, you further reduce the amount of heat that does enter the fuel/air mix.

[Calgary280ZT]

Wow, 2% increase in hp for every 10 degree drop in temp (I assume he's talking F, not C)...let's assume for sake of argument that 510six is correct and the coated intake mani is 40 degrees cooler. Theoretically, that could mean 8% more hp, maybe an extra 25+ hp on my car. That's a big hp gain for a small investment. The prces look pretty reasonable. Sounds fairly easy to apply.

 

What do you guys think?

[ktm]

Mark, the manifold was 40 degrees cooler, not the intake charge. The residence time of the air inside the manifold is so short that it will not be heated up (significantly) by the manifold.

 

In my mind it's not worth ceramic coating the intake manifold unless you are always running the engine hard. I would spend the money and ceramic coat the exhaust manifold and downpipe. Your turbo exhaust housing is already coated, correct? Source reduction is the key.

[Midnitz]

Monzter,

 

excellent picture of the cut intake...this is by far the best way to massage your intake runners.

 

The main mistake people make is they enlarge the runners too much....

enlarge them the most as they leave the plenum and the volume should reduce as you approach the cyl head interface....this drop in volume will maintain air intake velocity and help throttle response.

 

I would gasket match, the velocity of the taper on the intake runners would help mitigate reversion due to cam timing overlap.

 

re:techline coatings

 

I swear by the coatings and use them on all my engine builds....infra red prometer and thermocouple tested, the coatings work well and will improve

your engine's efficiency. I reckon it will improve turbo lag due to retention of heat in the exhaust manifold or header and turbine housing. (I see a pre and post coating dyno study in the making here)

 

KTM: I disagree....the thermal dispersant coating on the exterior of the intake should be considered, since it will improve the intakes' ability to dissapate any heat faster than if left uncoated. I believe techline calls it the TLTD coating

 

The con: they only sell the good coatings to businesses....so I have to order from work.

[Calgary280ZT]

Midnitz, would you bother with Techline's DIY coatings? I may have access to a kiln to cure it....would that help or just not necessary? I think Technline's coatings started around $30, so doesn't seem like much expense or trouble to coat the manifolds.

 

Would it make more sense to coat the exhaust rather than the intake? Keep the heat down?

[Calgary280ZT]

BTW guys, have decided to have Lonewolf port the intake manifold. For $350 the price was right. I've got so much other work to do that porting it myself just isn't practical.

[Midnitz]

Calgary,

 

It makes sense to coat both the exhaust manifold/header, turbo exhaust housing and downpipe with the cermakrome coating. The biggest caveat is the prep work before the coating, make sure the aluminum oxide is new and uncontaminated. Make sure any and all portwork take place before the coatings.

 

The intake, after portwork, should get coated with thermal dispersant coating to just the exterior and because these are "Dry" intakes, have the people doing the portwork perform normal bead blasting on the interior of the intake prior to re-welding. If you can do the coatings yourself, make sure you spray the thermal dispersant on lightly, not too wet.

 

Other items that can and should be considered for thermal dispersant; Oil pan, oil coolers, intercoolers, routing tubes, impeller housing.

 

Other coatings to consider, Dry film lube coating the piston skirts, valve stems.

 

Oil Shedding coat the wrist pin side of pistons, the top surface of the cyl head, interior surface of the valve cover.

[Tony D]

Techline is in Murietta, I can get that stuff through work as well, having my offices in Buffalo order what you want, and then appearing in person to 'will call' at their offices...they're about 20 minutes from my house.

 

As for 270CFM per runner on a stock manifold, that is significant. I think most L-Heads only flow 210-220cfm in the ports, that would indicate that a stock manifold with optimal porting would flow all the head could take....

 

Check with Dave Rebello on what your intake port actually flows and match to that.

 

As for thermal blocking / hi tech coatings, I am and have been a big fan for a long time. It's a payback thing, though... Do you really need everything they are offering, or will your money be better spent elsewhere?

[Calgary280ZT]

Techline is in Murietta, I can get that stuff through work as well, having my offices in Buffalo order what you want, and then appearing in person to 'will call' at their offices...they're about 20 minutes from my house.

 

Great! Let's chat more about this at MSA, I need to figure out first which products I need to order.

 

As for 270CFM per runner on a stock manifold, that is significant. I think most L-Heads only flow 210-220cfm in the ports, that would indicate that a stock manifold with optimal porting would flow all the head could take....

 

Check with Dave Rebello on what your intake port actually flows and match to that.

 

Dave gave me the work sheet, it provided the flow numbers I quoted above. Are those the numbers you're referring to or should I be asking Dave for something else?

 

As for thermal blocking / hi tech coatings, I am and have been a big fan for a long time. It's a payback thing, though... Do you really need everything they are offering, or will your money be better spent elsewhere?

 

Hmmm, I checked the prices on Techline's web site and they seemed pretty reasonable. Time for more research....

[Midnitz]

The coatings are more of a build sequence issue....if you have it apart, it requires small semi-tedious tasks to get the coatings applied. The benefits

will far outweigh the costs. If the motor is built, stick to coating things like the intercooler, the intake, oil cooler, exh. manifold or header, turbo housing etc....

 

The flow #s Tony is talking about are a good approximation...

you can squeeze more flow out of the ports but it requires more than a bit of carbide and sanding roll/flap wheel work.

 

Getting a dummy head and optimizing the intake and exhaust ports for the best flow is usually the way to go.

 

This is where the inner bore diameter measuring tool works great to approximate dimensions at given incriments.

 

Casting a die of the ported cavity and cutting in half for fit checking of any subsequent ports is also a good thing if you want to balance the ports....flow benching to verify a correlation is a must.

[Calgary280ZT]

Midnitz, I'm having Lonewolf Performance port the intake manifold. They also offer a coating service. Should I have them coat the interior of the manifold while they have it apart or is this something I can do afterward?

 

Per your comments above, I plan to coat the exhaust manifold myself. The T3/T4 turbo I recently bought from a member is supposedly coated already, internally I assume, since there is no coating visible on the outside. Should I coat the outside as well?

[Tony D]

If you have a minimum of 150# of stuff to get coated, you can simply drop it off at the will call window at Sermatech Airfoil Management in Compton (Off the 91 and Wilmington) and pick it up later that same week... Prices are suprisingly inexpensive when you deal directly with the coater.

 

They are an FAA certified repair station for internal jet engine components, so their 'high heat' coatings are not some B.S. marketing hype. Some of them are downright ugly, but will withstand over 2500 degrees F!

 

Lots of the Cobra Guys take their sidepipes and headers there to be coated. Curiously, so do a lot of Top Fuel NHRA people...and some big name racing teams send their brake rotors there as well...

 

Isn't it amazing how much useless trivia pollutes my brain? LOL