Guest Anonymous Posted May 10, 2001 Share Posted May 10, 2001 I want PLENTY of power but do not want to copletely lose reliability...I am leaning towards this motor: http://www.jonbarrett.com/383.php3 It's the blitz 383. how reliable do you think an engine putting out that kind of power is. I was also considering the one from Badasscars.com. They are rated at just about the same power. Any info you guys could give would be great because this will be my daily driver. I plan on putting it in with a T56 if that makes a difference. oh yeah and what kind of mileage should I expect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikelly Posted May 10, 2001 Share Posted May 10, 2001 Well the only thing BAD I can say about that motor is that it doesn't have aluminum heads... That is totally preference, but it does add some weight to the nose of the car... Numbers are impressive and the motor is internally balanced... Two things you would have to replace before installing it... The Flex PLate is 168 tooth and you want to run a 153 tooth flywheel with your T56, so you can tell them to keep that. The 8 inch balancer needs to be swapped for something 7inches or smaller. I paid $3800 delivered for my 383 stroker, with aluminum heads and Victory Jr. Intake, oil pan to intake, portmatched, and some extras done internally... Roller valve train, and other stuff... If it were me, I'd seriously look into the GM HiPo crate motors offered by GMPP. Their Fast Burn 385 gives you a lot of bang for the buck and a warranty (I believe...)! One thing you wan't to do is exhaust all your options before you settle on a package. Then put it on paper and sell yourself on it... I mean play devil's advocate BIG TIME.. One Mistake I made that I would Change: I wouldn't do the 383 stroker.. I would do a 350 and let it stretch a little more in the revs, maybe go with a milder cam profile, and have everything internally balanced... But (And this is just my opinion here) I wouldn't buy a new motor without getting aluminum heads thrown into the build. Hope this helps.. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmanzo57 Posted May 10, 2001 Share Posted May 10, 2001 Take a look at these engine combos... http://www.airflowresearch.com/chevy_dyno.htm My engine is based on the 460HP 383. My 1/4 mile times show that it makes ~425 HP(flywheel) through a single 3" exhaust system. I had been driving it daily to work, 64 miles round trip, until I broke the differential at the drag strip. The engine has been very reliable and streetable. I was getting about 16 MPG on my commute, 1 hour to drive 32 miles. Don Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted May 13, 2001 Share Posted May 13, 2001 I think that's a lot of cam for a daily driver. No, it's not too much for the street. With a big motor and a light car I would go with a single plane intake. I like the cooling effect with an air gap. I don't like heads either. I think the runners should be smaller (for a daily driver), and they should be aluminum. I am not saying it is a bad motor, but I would build it differently. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted May 13, 2001 Share Posted May 13, 2001 i was under the impression that single plane intakes were better for high rpms only. if I were building a race only engine that's what ide use but if I were building a street machine and were concidering which intake to use these are the first questions that would cross my mind...... would the single plane intake cause uneven fuel distribution at low rpm? would one lean running cylinder next to a richer one cause a difference that would play havoc with the plugs, buildup in the valve chambers etc.? would the better vaccuum I got with a dual plane intake allow better tuning of the distributer counterweights and the secondaries on my carb so i've got more useful power for a wider variety of rpms? If I decided to use aluminum heads with an open plenum(is that the same as single plane?) intake on the street I'd definately find out if in fact the fuel distribution was uneven and if that might cause uneven heat between the cylinders and could that fatigue the aluminum unevenly and cause problems? Then I'd do the rest of the math and combine the block serial# with the production hh/mm/dd/yy of my intake and call the psychic hotline and see if it was a full moon Mark SnakeEater Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavyZ Posted May 13, 2001 Share Posted May 13, 2001 Mark, the dual-plane intakes are more streetable not because of distribution per se, but because the air/fuel mixture has a higher velocity at lower rpms. Thus dual-plane intakes have better low end torque and off the line performance. A single-plane intake is better at high rpm. Our cars are relatively light weight for the torque, so is a dual-plane intake really necessary. I have one, and my motor is cammed and capable of only 0-5500 rpm max. This favors the dual-plane intake, period. My next motor will be a destroked 400sbc to 377 or even 350 ci. That will be a revvvver and I'm looking to spin upwards of 6500rpm. In that case, a single-plane intake would be best. Plus the cam selection will reflect the rpm range I will run in. Make sense? David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted May 13, 2001 Share Posted May 13, 2001 thanks David, I'm still curious if there's a problem at all with the single plane causing uneven distribution if it idles much and what would the problems be. I had a strip dominator on a 350 several years ago and it seems that we tracked ONE of my problems with the intake to uneven fuel mixture reaching the cylinders (like you said, low velocity was problably the factor that caused it). This WAS on a much heavier vehicle. The single planes look much cooler too. Does this cause the engine to run cooler like was emplied in the earlier post? Mark WhaZZZat??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLKMGK Posted May 14, 2001 Share Posted May 14, 2001 FWIW - I went with a single plane for two reasons - the first was to kill low end torque. Yup, I don't want a ton of really low end torque in such a light car. Th esecond was that I would have an easier time converting this intake to EFI than a dual plane. Yeah, the fuel may be lazier in the runners at low RPM and fall out of suspension but that's okay, when I go EFI it won't matter (shrug). I'm not sure the air gap helps much but every degree of temp you get it down is free power so take it if you can... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Modern Motorsports Ltd Posted May 14, 2001 Share Posted May 14, 2001 Fully agreed with BLKMGK. I run the Victor Jr. on my roller 350/700R4 combo. Ran a weiand dual plane before. I love the Victor Jr. and can't detect ANY loss in low end/although I switched from a 327 hydr. tappet to 350 roller with bigger bumpstick but still not radical/ZZ4 cam with edelbrock topend mostly. Plugs don't show anything funny after idling so no odd/lean conditions of concern. Torque is there a plenty right off my 650rpm idle . BLKMGC, check out what you might find used for an EFI intake as that's what happened to me.....I'll yank my 'old' Victor Jr. next week to install my 'new' EFI'd one I picked up. Wish I had a larger set of mic's etc/I'd measure up the EFI locations/injector angles to make DIY efforts easier in locating/installing injector bosses. I disagree that single plane benefits are only for 5500+ motors, any motor getting going beyond a towing low rpm truck motor can use single plane to benefit mid to upper rpm as long as their build/application won't suffer from any reduced bottom. I've seen single planes on trucks with mild motors with no ill effects and don't have the dyno sheets but have been told on many occasion by a dyno addicted builder that single planes are 'over-hyped' for higher rpm's otherwise the true racers wouldnt' buy them as they always feel their goods should be different from the 'normal' street mods. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted May 14, 2001 Share Posted May 14, 2001 The guy's backed me up perfecly! Nicely done. The Strip Dominator has a very large plenum compared to the Vic Jr. or the Team G. Which makes it a higher RPM manifold. Yes a dual plane makes more low end power, but buy 3,000 RPM's (and how long does that take in these cars, a heart beat?)the single plane has not only cought the dual plane but is making up to 20 more HP. The air gap is suposed to be worth another 20HP, but I have not seen any proof. I switched a guy from an Edelbrock Performer to an Weiand Team G. He say's he will never put a dual plane on a street car again. The only time I recomend a dual plane is on very heavy applications or on a bone stock two barrel converting to a four barrel, and that's the only mod they are going to do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikelly Posted May 14, 2001 Share Posted May 14, 2001 When I was building my motor (Actually the builder was building, I was paying) I spoke with an engineer at Isky Cams who talked me out of a dual plane intake. We were shooting for a broad torque curve and a cam that would rev to 7200RPMs and needed a comperable intake for the chore. Dual plane units are fine, they work, and in a 3500# car they really do help with the off idle to 3500RPM range. However, as the others have mentioned here, these Zs are much much lighter and just don't need MORE torque. Single plane intakes also don't give you a "Lazy" feel if you use the right valve train parts. Best BANG for the BUCK in my opinion is going with a roller valve train and a single plane intake... and as BLKMGK noted, it will make swapping to FI that much easier... I'll probably do that with my Victor Jr if my motor doesn't sell... Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pparaska Posted May 14, 2001 Share Posted May 14, 2001 What I keep coming back to on the "we don't need low end torque" and Single plane issue are these two things: 1) I have a mild performance V8. 327, mild 224@.050 solid flat tappet cam, camelhump heads, dual plane, 750 vac. sec. carb. (Remember, for a solid cam, you have to subtract 8-12 degrees of 0.050 duration to get to a comparison of a hydraulic cam). Desktop dyno estimates about 360 hp., ~90% of the peak 400 ft lbs of torque over the 2500-4500 range. This is probably pretty optimistic. The car will cruise in 5th at about 2100rpm. Would I gain much top end (drops off torque and hp above 5500rpm) with a single plane? I doubt it, and so does Desktop Dyno. 2) This is a street car mostly. Cruise at 2100rpm in 5th on the highway. Seems like the reason I built it was for kick in the back performance under just such circumstances, mainly. Sure, I can shift down to 4th, but what if I just want to "jump" from 65mph in 5th? Heck I do that in my Turbo Eclipse, and it works pretty good above 70mph (after the installation of a relief valve controller and it's a cool day). How much of that "kick" would I lose if I went to a Victor Jr.? To me throttle response is very important. Maybe I'll have so much I wouldn't miss a small fraction of it. I'm probably operating in a different performance range and application than others here. [ May 14, 2001: Message edited by: pparaska ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavyZ Posted May 14, 2001 Share Posted May 14, 2001 One thing to add to this good discussion: The EFI atomizes fuel better than a carb, but is probably more of a chore to install and is more expensive--at least from my research. With a single-plane intake, the EFI may counter(?) some of the inherent bog or delay one may experience with a single-plane intake? To just touch on what WebWalker asked about, perhaps something (hit or miss here) that contributed to the uneven mix at low rpm: way lumpy cam (not the best match?) and maybe the carb you were running (too much carb, jets not right, etc). Just some things I'm thinking about since I was not there. I'm sticking with my Weiand Stealth manifold which is supposed to act like both a single and dual plane intake. It has a split personality! David By the way IMO this discussion has been really excellent and thought provoking. Everyone has put in a great amount of thought and expertese. Very enjoyable! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLKMGK Posted May 15, 2001 Share Posted May 15, 2001 Davy - the "issue" with single plane intakes that is supposed to make them better for upper RPM motors is that the bigger plenums and runners make airflow "lazy". Fuel is supposed to drop out of suspension at low RPMs and intake runners get wet instead of simply flowing the mixture. That's the theory anyway, I don't know if th ereal world really works this way... When you go EFI ALL of that goes away - fuel is squirted into the back of the valve and the ONLY thing the intake flows is air. EFI has ALL of the benfits of single plane airflow with better mixture over a dual plane intake. The ONLY advantage a carb has over multiport EFI is the cooling effect of the fuel in the mixture. EFI is much more adjustable too, it does things a carb could NEVER do. A converted single plane intake is the best of both worlds. Having never run a carb'ed single plane I cannot speak to it's driveability but I don't think it'll be that bad - I'm willing to give up low end torque in this application. Given a choice and infinate amonts of money I suppose I'd go for a dual intake setup ala th eSHO with two sets of runners tuned to different RPM bands. There was an aftermarket intake like this fo rth eMustang once upon a time but it was too expensive to get anywhere - bummer. Lastly, the ONLY time a carb beats EFI is when it's not tuned right. Most of the EFI vs Carb shootouts swap the intake for a different design and the EFI ends up with torque gains and HP losses. The reason for this is often the intake design, it's even worst when they used a damned OEM style intake! OEM EFI intakes have looong runners to promote torque and run out of breath in the upper RPM. Convert a carb intake to EFI and at the very least it will match the carb for HP with better driveability and greater torque - IF it's tuned right.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted May 15, 2001 Share Posted May 15, 2001 I saw a article recently on a Holley vs EFI shootout and as you say, the torque was better on the EFI, but the Holley was showing more top end gain. Until... they put larger injectors in and remapped then power exceeded the carb. Only thing that I think might have been interesting if they would have gone the next larger carb size to see if that raised power as well. No arguement that the EFI is a better mixture and probably leads to a better/cleaner ignition, perhaps one day I'll have injector bungs welded on the weiand stealth, use the Holley as a throttle body and maybe SDS or something to Frankenstein together a injection system. Till then... plain ole Holley. Regards, Lone Ps: I agree, its been a good discussion as usual! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Z-Dreamer Posted May 15, 2001 Share Posted May 15, 2001 Hey Lone, how about treating a future V8Zer to a ride in your Z? I live Sac town you know. Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted May 15, 2001 Share Posted May 15, 2001 It really comes down to your application IMHO. If the car is predominantly driven on the street and your cam is done by 5500-6000, then its makes no sense using the single plane. As Davy said the drop in velocity will definately affect the low end torque and the dual plane will flow enough to the above mentioned RPM's. Low end torque is often diss'ed on here because of our 'light' cars and granted if your only concern is launching the car from a dead stop or you can't help but mash the gas to the floor out of a slow corner instead of rolling into it, then yeah its probably not for you. In my opinion, its what the V8 is known for, low and midrange torque and its what I enjoy most about the 350 in my car. I can troll on the street at a low 1500 rpm's in a higher gear and still have snap left to floor it to get good acceleration. Same thing goes for the freeway. The engine runs well at 1600 and has power to pull it, granted if you want a really fast pass, drop to 5th. The above in no way dismisses others opinions on what they're idea of a street engine is to them. I'm just making a case for low end torque here and that it as I started with, does depend on your application and what your using it for. Remember, your viewpoint depends on where your standing.. .02, Lone Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted May 15, 2001 Share Posted May 15, 2001 Pete, a SBC at about 2K to 2.5K (it depends on the motor) the single plane catches up to the dual plane, and are making comparable power. When the motor hits 3K your going to see about 20HP. I can't see that it matters that your shifting at 5.5K. The dual plane will give you about 20HP off idle that you won't have with the single plane. It deffinatly depends on driving styles and what you want the car to do. Maybe a couple of guys that live close together should trade manifolds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pparaska Posted May 15, 2001 Share Posted May 15, 2001 Hmm. That's pretty much what I was thinking - that off idle the response might not be as good. As for the question as to whether I'd still think it's acceptable, I agree the only way to know is to put a Vic Jr. on there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted May 15, 2001 Share Posted May 15, 2001 quote: Originally posted by Z-Dreamer: Hey Lone, how about treating a future V8Zer to a ride in your Z? I live Sac town you know. Mark Mark, that'd be great, let me get my tires and wheels on the car (this week! I've got a ear monitoring the front door as we speak for my summit racing package, tires already bought) and I'll email you and see what your weekends are like! Be nice to show it to another Z'er (nuthin spectacular looks wise yet, but I havn't really gotten to the body. ) I'm also interested in seeing how your Dana project will work out. Regards, Lone Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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