250 GTO. Things you wish you knew before?

[Filmjay]

Hi all!

 

I've been a relatively frequent lurker to these forums for the last few months while doing research, and refused to do so until I was ready to begin my new life.

But, I've finally joined up and am finally taking the leap and making the first baby steps in seeing my dream project come to fruition.

At the moment, I am still in the planning/budgeting stages. Though I am still hesitant to post this in the fear of it being seen as just another "bench racer", because it most definitely is NOT.

 

I've searched and searched, and have read all 280+ threads pertaining to the 250GTO conversion. I've learned about everything I can so far without actually digging in myself....from door latches and trim rings, to rocker panels and frame stretching.

 

I don't have the car yet and am still looking for the right donor. But, I DO have its' future powerplant already in my possession...a 4.0L Northstar V8. (JTR V8 conversion manual is already on the way)

Which, upon reaching a state closer to completion will be re-yanked and sent to Cadillac Hot Rod in TX for a rebuild.

 

So, I would like to ask you more experienced guys and girls about your experiences...especially w/ the 250 GTO. But ANY insight pertaining to V8 swaps/mounting, suspension setups, parts sources, etc...is welcome as this will be my first ever Z.

 

Some of the questions I'd like to begin with are as follows....

 

1. Which car (240, 260, or 280) would be the more appropriate choice for the kit, based on the amount of horsepower to be put into the car? (350-400 NA hp)

 

The '71 240 is ideally what I'd like to start with, but the stronger, more rigid 280 would need less stiffening. What does experience say, given the planned HP?

 

2. What are some of the things that would need to be retained from the Z? Or can I get away with just getting a stripped Z? Would these items be easier REtained or obtained new based on availability (not price)

 

3. Based on the available 250 GTO kits and the quality of such, would it be better to mix/match the body components from different kits?

 

That's all I can think of for now at 7am. I could go all day though. haha!

 

ANY insight on any area of rebuilding a dream Z is welcome.

 

Preemptive thanks for taking the time to offer a studious reply. Not really looking for "how-to's". More about the "things you wish you knew beforehand" and had to learn along the way.

[Zerrari GTO]

Hi Filmjay,

For me, what started out as a quick clean-up on a 280Z before installing a Velo Rossa body kit, turned into a full rotisserie restoration and modification. The car is back on the ground now and all the body panels are being fitted. Just so you know, almost every piece from the kit needed to be cut and reshaped to fit properly. This was hardly a bolt-on install so be ready for LOTS of fabrication. A lot of work also went into stiffening the body (sub-frame connectors, enforced rocker panels, etc.). My main piece of advise for a project like this is that you will need a multitude of fabrication skills. About everything pertaining to this can be found on this website but just be sure you are not bitting off too much. This is definately not a cheap date or a quick one!

 

Good luck and keep everyone updated on your progress!

[Filmjay]

hmmm....lots of fabrication eh?

 

What sort? Fiberglass fitting? bracing/stiffening? V8 install? (I just ordered the JTR book this morning, so I guess that will be answered soon enough. )

 

I'm in love w/ Chelle's V12 setup. Although, SpeedRacers' and Con Brio's are a little more "practical"...if a project like this can be called as such. lol. And I still haven't found pics of yours yet.....

But, I think some of the things she's done are a little beyond my current abilities. I won't be making any super major structural changes. Though I may look a bit closer at her rear deck lid rework. The hood and rear of her car are something I'd really like to try later on.

 

But, first things first.

[VinhZXT]

I believe there is one on Ebay right now. good luck

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=190263836045&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWAX%3AIT&viewitem=

[e_racer1999]

Welcome! I would like to start out by saying that I am in no way an expert on the 250 GTO conversion, but I may have some general advice and a couple questions. How comprehensive will the rebuild be? I would probably recommend you get a later 280Z for your donor. My reasoning is as follows: I am assuming that you are keeping the Northstar V8 fuel-injected, therefore I would sat go for the 280Z because that's less work you would need to do on the fuel system to get it compatible with the EFI. My other reason for recommending the 280 is because of availability and price. Since more 280Zs were made than any other S30, there will be more and they should be cheaper because they are not as highly sought after when compared to the 240 or 260. I say later because more people seem to go for the '75 because it is smog exempt (at least that's the situation in CA).

Anyway, hope that helps!

[mclark999]

I'm more than half way through the Vello Rosa conversion. I would highly recommend you do what I did -- buy a really high quality rustfree 280. I bought the car in Arizona and it doesn't have rust anywhere. Even if you don't go with the spyder type, the extra strength in the 280 will serve you well with a high power v8. Cutting the top off the 280, nothing sagged. I will reinforce, but only because I cut the top off. If you go for the coupe conversion and use a rustfree 280, you can avoid all the strengthening. You might want to bolt on shock tower mounts, but won't need to do much more than that.

 

I recommend completely rust free because this is a huuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuge project. Why make more work for yourself?

 

You might even cheat a little the way I did. My car already had the V8 installed and the brakes and suspension upgraded. Saved me tons of hours, so I could just focus on the body kit.

 

If you can find a car that someone else has loved and improved, but is bored with or can't afford, you can get a deal and save yourself a lot of time and money. I paid less for my donor car than I would have just to build the engine that came in it.

 

No matter what you do, the guys and gals here are very helpful and very encouraging. Have a blast.

 

Michael

[Filmjay]

That's a pretty intriguing ebay auction. The fact that it's BOTH chassis is a plus, especially for the price. A little rust, I don't mind as long as its' not in the unibody. I've sent the seller some questions. But transport for it would be about $1500...assuming there are no international laws regarding 3rd party transport.

 

I'd prefer to use a pre-74 to get by emissions issues and for the slightly more sloping roofline.

 

IS there not a floor pan kit for a 240? I'd be surprised if there wasn't.

But, even if I do have to replace floors, it's not really that big of a deal as long as there's a kit available. I've replaced floors before...although not in a Z-car. Again, I have no problem in replacing some of the metal, as long as it's not in the unibody too much.

I really can't say until I have the car in my possession what will need to be done.

 

In the spirit of Enzo and the early Ferrari's I'm shooting for a road-going race car while still remaining street-able....hopefully.

 

But, I will be using a custom fuel system with a Holley or Barry Grant external pump and an aluminum fuel cell. I haven't decided on a 15- or 20-gallon yet.) I've learned that, if the stock tank isn't necessary (say, for a restoration) by the time an original tank is boiled out and restored a nice fuel cell/external pump can be used.

 

Although my engine options have, just last night, expanded. My fiances' father has offered a race-prepped 355 SBC from one of his circle track cars. That might be route I go since my Northstar would still need a rebuild and modification to mate to a T-5.

 

A northstar WOULD be pretty trick, but after working on it previously, it IS a P.I.T.A. to do so compared to a SBC. Plus, parts are FAR more readily available. I was just planning on the N* because it runs, and I already have it in my possession. But, with the SBC, the body is going to need considerable stiffening no matter what car I base it on.

 

Thanks for the ideas and suggestions. Keep 'em coming.

[Filmjay]

Thanks again for the replies.

 

I really appreciate the advice, especially on which car to base the project on.

I've since moved totally away from the Northstar and will be getting rid of it ASAP. ...and as much as I'd LOVE to do it, the 355 is really a 700+hp race engine...and I'd like to actually drive this car on a semi regular basis.

 

I still have a few motor options available, but really want to go with the one that's gonna be the least amount of fabrication.

 

I've settled on a 383 SBC OR an LS1. As of yesterday, My father-in-law's friend that owns a salvage yard said I could have my pick. (although he's already crushed the only 2 Z-cars he had. ) He's got no less than 8 wrecked C5 Corvettes with full running gear.

 

While I'd prefer to do a 383 SBC, I could probably get an LS1 or LS6 AND T56 for what just the 383 would cost.

 

BUT, from what I've been reading on the forums here, the LS1/T56 swap into a 240 requires some pretty major firewall modification and I'd like to retain heat and A/C. But the 280 is a bigger, stiffer car and would need less body modifications.

 

My problem is that I can't find the right car. Should I just wait for a smog exempt ('74 and older in TN) 240/260? Or go for that '78 280 up the road that I can haul away right now?

 

What engine I plan on determines the car that I get and I don't know how smog friendly this 500 horse Gen1 383 would be although it's what I'd prefer to drop in, regardless of cost.

 

hmmmm....decisions, decisions......

[chelle]

welcome and congrats on taking the plunge

And thanks for the kind words on our toy

Personally I prefer mixing and matching, with a little bit of making a few pieces yourself. Next time, or maybe on the current car I'm going to make the hood, trunk lid, doorskins, and rockers out of aluminum.. it will make for a lot more consistent fit

best of luck!

Chelle

[Filmjay]

welcome and congrats on taking the plunge

And thanks for the kind words on our toy

Personally I prefer mixing and matching, with a little bit of making a few pieces yourself. Next time, or maybe on the current car I'm going to make the hood, trunk lid, doorskins, and rockers out of aluminum.. it will make for a lot more consistent fit

best of luck!

Chelle

 

AHA! Finally, the builder I wished most to hear from speaks! I've been following your build for ages before I ever joined here or commented elsewhere.

 

If you're going through the extent of fabricating in aluminum...why not carbon fiber? I was considering remolding the body panels in carbon fiber. Will you be fabricating a tubular frame for a "true" replica?

 

Though, I don't have my donor yet, I've decided to hold off to find the right one. Instead, I've decided to start rebuilding the Northstar I have and fabricating the intake and exhaust instead of going with a crate motor, while still keeping an eye out for the chassis. Though, using the modern engine, I'll have the option of using a 280 and being within emissions limits. Also, I've found great sources for genuine Ferrari long blocks...but an engine I have, is one less thing I have to worry about procuring....and figuring out how to adapt to a FR application.

 

Thanks to you all for any and every piece of insight you can offer. I'll be needing every bit I can get over the next few months...er, years.

[Dan Juday]

Welcome to Hybrid Filmjay.

 

Let me start by saying I have not built or worked on a Z based 250 GTO replica. But I do have some experience with V8 swaps and fiberglass body mods on the S30 platform.

 

Here in California we have a loophole that allows you to register a replica as a "Specialty constructed vehicle". The emissions laws follow the model year of the vehicle you are replicating. Hence, a 1962 GTO built on a 1978 donor would be held to the smog laws of 1962. I have a friend who has a TomahawkZ registered this way.

 

I don't know if Tennessee has a similar system but I would research this if I were you.

 

IMHO a '77 or '78 would make a much better donor for a GTO than the earlier cars. I have cut into these cars and I can tell you from direct observation that the latter bodies were built much stiffer with thicker metal and more gussets than the early S30s. On top of that is all the advantages stated by others in this thread.

 

Pick your car wisely and start with a strong straight rust free foundation and you will have a superior finished product. I would go as far as recommending you buy a nice complete running car and drive it before you take it apart. Some problems only show up when you are behind the wheel at speed. You are going to pay a lot more to start with but you will know you stated right. If you actually finish this project and do it right (sorry to cast doubt, but the truth is that many start and few finish) you will spend many times the price of a nice driver 280Z.

 

Good luck. I look forward to reading of your progress.

[Filmjay]

Thanks Dan. I have driven a few Z's in the past...though not mine. I have a friend that swears by them and they're all he will drive. I've known him since I was 16 (I'm 30) and that's all he's ever owned.

 

I'm not really interested in obtaining a running Z though. I'm only interested in a Z for the GTO conversion. That's it. And yes, I do realize that it will cost FAR more than a "normal" Z. I figure between $25-32K will get it where I want it...doing most of the work myself. I'm expecting it and have budgeted for it.

 

Ideally, I'd like to find a shell as there will be very little I'm planning to reuse. Perhaps even a project someone has started and hasn't finished. And trust me, I'm being rather picky when it's coming to choosing the base chassis. I've already passed more than a few by, and I've been looking for a quite a few months now.

 

It IS interesting to know about the "Specialty Constructed" law in California. Perhaps SpeedRacer could offer a definitive answer, being a fellow Tennesseean...but I will definitely look into it as that enormously affects my chassis and engine options.

 

Thanks for the tip.

 

*edit* While it's not YET approved, Tennessee has pretty much mirrored the Cali law on custom vehicles.

H.B. 320/S.B. 812 provides that a replica vehicle will be assigned a certificate of title bearing the same model year designation as the production vehicle it most closely resembles.

WOO HOO! Straight exhaust it is!!! Now, I can feel a little more comfortable in obtaining a post-74 car! This has absolutely made my day!!!!

*RE-edit* They've already enacted the SEMA bill as of 2008. And dopey me sent my Representatives requests to support it. haha! Oh well. Better late than never.

[Jason Jarvis]

I'd prefer to use a pre-74 to get by emissions issues and for the slightly more sloping roofline.

 

I don't think there is a difference in the roofline of any of the first gen cars, as long as you are comparing 2 seaters to 2 seaters and 2+2's to 2+2's...

 

Good luck with your build. All I can really contribute is that I agree with all the comments on using a 280, and that I have purchased several parts from John Washington of VR and can highly recommend him.

 

Jason

[Filmjay]

LOL! Didn't read my last post did ya?

[Jason Jarvis]

LOL! Didn't read my last post did ya?

 

Um, sure did, and I re-reading it I don't see anything about the roofline..... Sorry if I am missing something, sounds like you don't have to worry about the emissions issues though, good deal.

 

Jason