tonycharger72 Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 ok ... what do u think about the corvette subframe idea ? ... johnc Thought I might butt in here with the potential difficulties involved with installation Corvette front suspension will be a b@stard because its a double-a-arm setup and probably has a track 200mm wider than the Z's! I recently looked at the front subframe and suspension from an MX5 - basically to install the subframe you have to completely re-model your chassis rails - ie.......cut them out and install new ones! http://www.streetshopinc.com/images/str8axl/street_shop_inc_str8axl_large_09.jpg The Corvette might be an easier prospect based on that picture in the link above - but still have to figure out where your going to hang the Upper Control Arms and deal with the very large track increase (like ZG Flares will be needed)! If you are going to go to stick with a Mac Strut - use the S13/14/15 (like what Mull has done) lot's and lots of aftermarket goodies avialable for them and they don't start out being sh#t from the factory ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheNick Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 johnc- all im saying is that its not as bad as thanick is saying, and it would prolly be better than what the z car suspension is stock. ... that is if it were even feesable to do ... if it wernt too much fab work. i know the fox suspension isnt that good. Listen to John - its horrible. Anything where you have to run 1100+lb springs and still over 3deg of camber is going to have large compromises built into it. IT REALLY is that bad! One of the worst Macstruts ever designed - seconded only to maybe the B13 Sentra's. You can make a Macstrut work really well - see any BMW or Porsche. But starting with a Nissan or Ford design is truly an uphill battle. In this case - the stock suspension for the Z is still leaps and bounds ahead of a Mustang. BTW - I've run over 1.1g's (sustained) on a 195mm wide street tire in a Civic on an autox course. Using that as a gauge to compare handling is not a really good way to do it - its more or less a by-product of magazines not being able to quantify subjective testing and feel of a car. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 Listen to John - its horrible. Anything where you have to run 1100+lb springs and still over 3deg of camber is going to have large compromises built into it. IT REALLY is that bad! One of the worst Macstruts ever designed - seconded only to maybe the B13 Sentra's. You can make a Macstrut work really well - see any BMW or Porsche. But starting with a Nissan or Ford design is truly an uphill battle. In this case - the stock suspension for the Z is still leaps and bounds ahead of a Mustang. BTW - I've run over 1.1g's (sustained) on a 195mm wide street tire in a Civic on an autox course. Using that as a gauge to compare handling is not a really good way to do it - its more or less a by-product of magazines not being able to quantify subjective testing and feel of a car. John was saying that YOUR suggestion of the Mustang II suspension was the bad one. You can do a lot with the Mustang strut suspension. I used to race against these guys: http://www.maximummotorsports.com Trust me, they're pulling more than 1.1g on their strut setup and they haul ass around the track. I was significantly faster than them when I left CA, but they are now significantly faster than John's ROD, which was a DAMN fast 240Z. Why anyone would bother to go from Z struts to Mustang struts is a mystery to me, but that suspension has potential, just like our Z strut suspension does. The Z and the Stang both suck donkey balls out of the box. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheNick Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 From what I saw - John was saying both ideas were bad - mine was just a random pull of an SLA suspension from the Speedway motors catalog I had in front of me. I didn't pay much attention to its construction. You can do a lot with any strut suspension - I'm not disputing that - but taking the time to put a crappier suspension on a car that already has a crappy suspension doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Hell if anyone here was actually racing - and had the slightest touch of common sense (read - not dumping 3x's the value of the car into the suspension) - they wouldn't start with a Z or a Mustang unless it was an SN197... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnc Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 (edited) Gonna be hard to fit the lateral leaf spring. EDIT; The aove comment was in reference to installing the Corvette front subframe. Edited March 18, 2009 by johnc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 Hell if anyone here was actually racing - and had the slightest touch of common sense (read - not dumping 3x's the value of the car into the suspension) - they wouldn't start with a Z or a Mustang unless it was an SN197... In my view common sense dictates not coming to a Z site where people are there specifically for the purpose of doing really heavy modifications and then suggesting that they have no common sense to be putting money into a Z car. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheNick Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 Jon - I'm not trying to start a fight with you. Clearly I'm here because I own a Z. I don't race it, there aren't many people here that race at all. Those that do don't post much. Tom Holt is here sometimes and John has worked on numerous race cars. I have other cars for racing that fit the letter of sanctioning body rules much better. Purpose of really heavy modifications does not mean racing. The point of my post was - if your end goal is to build a competitive, championship winning caliber car and saw that you need to put 3x's the value of the car into the suspension alone to get it to that point - common sense would dictate that you run away as fast as possible and find a different car to start with. If someone is interested - I can take a look at the frame rail width of my S2000 - track width is an extra 2" on each side and would necessitate high offset wheels to fit under the fenders of a Z. The front subframe does have the mounts for the lower control arms - upper arms would need to be mounted to the frame rail of the Z but it doesn't look like it would be too bad of an install. If you were gutsy enough - you could possibly find a way to run the Electric power steering of the Honda too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheNick Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 And let me clarify yet again the no common sense thing - this comment is coming from a guy who bought a $600 Civic and promptly dropped $2k into it for brand new bushings and bearings on all 4 corners, race valved Koni's, multiple sets of 500lb+ springs etc. Sometimes I forget that not everyone on every site knows who I am or can sense tone through the internet. Such is why I hate email at work sooooo much. Just gimme a damn phone... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheNick Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 I just realized I had the exact numbers for the S2000 frame rail width sitting right next to me from my sway bar build. ~29.5" from inside to inside. Rails are about 2.5" wide total. Thanks to the Chassis Dimension thread - the Z frame rails are ~27.5" Gee looks like all you would need to do is cut 2" out of the center of the s2000 subframe and upper control arms and you'd be in business Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnc Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 The point of my post was - if your end goal is to build a competitive, championship winning caliber car and saw that you need to put 3x's the value of the car into the suspension alone to get it to that point - common sense would dictate that you run away as fast as possible and find a different car to start with. I agree and that comes after spending close to $10,000 to put Penske 8760s on my 240Z. But this site is not about common sense... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 My car has returned very good value for the money I've put into it. There are very few other cars that I could have built for the same money or less that would have been faster. The only one I can think of right off the top is a Myers Manx. I used to autox with a guy who had about $5K in his and he was consistently faster than me. I think that at a road course it might have evened out a little bit with his horrible aero, don't know, never had the chance to get to the track with that guy. If you guys need help getting more out of your car for less money, I'm here to help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnc Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 The best bang for the buck road racer, autocross, and off road car I ever knew about was Paul's Dunestang. http://datsun510.com/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=7412 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 The best bang for the buck road racer, autocross, and off road car I ever knew about was Paul's Dunestang. http://datsun510.com/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=7412 Forgot about the Dunestang. That was a nice little homebuilt project, wasn't it? I did manage to beat him at the Santa Maria autox a couple times if I remember correctly. I'm sure he would have blown my doors off on a big track... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnc Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 I keep thinking about building something similar for myself. Probably never happen... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheNick Posted March 19, 2009 Share Posted March 19, 2009 The $500 special from my old region. Built out of parts laying around in the backyard. 4cyl Mitsu truck motor and a two speed automatic converted to a slapstick with full manual control. Guy is a real nut - incredibly smart - has a few circle track cars that he has built as well. Owns two generator powered tornado/nuclear bomb sirens...why? Just because - they were cheap and he has the room for them Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnc Posted March 19, 2009 Share Posted March 19, 2009 He should mount the siren and generator on his autocross car. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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