ZXT_bean Posted August 18, 2009 Share Posted August 18, 2009 (edited) Mods, this could possibly be used as a sticky if anyone else agrees. Ok, Ive been trying to tune this car on and off for the past 6 months. With absolutely no luck Ive come to the members of HBZ to ask for help. I will try to describe everything I can in detail. Please im still a MS noob, im still trying to figgure most of the programs out. The car is a 1980 280zx. Now has a l28et from a 81'. Now also swaped to 5spd. As for the MS side of things, MSII v3.57. Using 2.890 code. I have a 240sx tps, Gm IAT & CLT sensors. Still using the factory 270cc turbo injectors and pump, as well as the factory turbo. The only real mod done is the huge FMIC, and the fact that I am using a Ford EDIS ignition system as well. I have it clocked as per moby's directions. I also have LC-1 wideband dedicated and mounted in the car. Im getting the propper reading in megatune, but not the gauge for some reason. Here are some of the wiring diagrams ive followed during this build, maybe this thread will help some other oncoming noob like myself. Just for reference Ive collected a few screen shots trying to put together a base tune to start with. Now this is what I have come up with, this is not to be trusted or used at the moment, My car currently does start, but cranking time is through the roof, and will not hold an idle or stay running under its own power. As why I am coming to everyone here for help. Here are all the screen shots in order, if there is anything I have entered wrong please feel free to chime in. Ok, on with the screen shots. profunctionprep1.zip Edited August 18, 2009 by ZXT_bean Now the car fires, but runs very poorly... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
softopz Posted August 18, 2009 Share Posted August 18, 2009 To me this looks wrong. L series engines fire 153624 and the firing order of the coil is 132 or ACB, assuming you have it wired the ignition module to coil pack correctly. so you should have: cylinder 1 = TERMINAL 1 cylinder 5 = TERMINAL 2 cylinder 3 = TERMINAL 3 cylinder 6 = TERMINAL 1 cylinder 2 = TERMINAL 2 cylinder 4 = TERMINAL 3 correct me if Iam wrong guys. We need this cleared up and stickied because I had trouble with this too, and the megamanual was giving out wrong information. I actually had a post about this topic last week. http://forums.hybridz.org/showthread.php?t=152178 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZXT_bean Posted August 18, 2009 Author Share Posted August 18, 2009 Ok well I did some research today. This is what I came up with. Now I had the coil trigger wires from the Module wired up in the color coded fashion. Now what is the correct firing order for the edis module. is pin 10 cyl #1 & 6, or is pin 12 considered #1. I am so confused at the moment. but I believe the above are correctly decoded. Am I wrong? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noddle Posted August 18, 2009 Share Posted August 18, 2009 What Coil do you have, the reason I ask, I've seen three different types on this site, and they wire up differently, the first two have a square plug, http://forums.hybridz.org/showpost.php?p=601305&postcount=28 the third one has a rectangle plug, http://forums.hybridz.org/showpost.php?p=932222&postcount=164 your hand drawn picture looks like the third type, but if that correct, it's wired wrong. Cygnusx1 and myself are using the Dodge type coil. this is how mine is wired http://noddle.110mb.com/EDIS/slides/edis6ew-800.html Nigel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
softopz Posted August 19, 2009 Share Posted August 19, 2009 "Now what is the correct firing order for the edis module. is pin 10 cyl #1 & 6, or is pin 12 considered #1. I am so confused at the moment. but I believe the above are correctly decoded. Am I wrong? " 10 is first then 12 then 11 Yah now your illustration is right. no it actually isnt cause you just switched the letters with numbers!?! But forget about any colour coded wires/numbers/letters or illustrations at the moment. Just follow these steps and let us know whats happening. 1- Remove the DB37 connector this will put edis in limp mode (for step 2) and so you wont flood your engine. Your ignition should still spark IF you have the module and coil pack with there own seperate power which you should have if its wired properly. 2 - Check your timing remove all your spark plugs and lay them on the valve cover. This way the engine cranks faster and the timing light will have a easier time picking it up. Put a timing light on 1 and crank her up you should be getting 10 degree advance..If not than clock it appropriatly. 3 - Wire pin 10 from module to coil and the +12v. Put a spark plug to each terminal see which one sparks. Which ever one that fires mark/scribe A that terminal will be for 1 & 6. Then do the same for pin 11 that one will be B cylinder 3 & 4. And the last you obviously dont need to do that will be C and will go to 5 & 2. This method will eliminate confusion because some coil packs may be different or you could have been following bad illustrations ( I know this first hand ) megamanual labels A B C left to right with the plug down that wasnt the case for me. when I saw your illustration I got confused toO! and you made me think "hey what if I was wrong again" because a week ago I had started a thread exactly about this. BRAAP just added some more info to the post please read the whole thread Hopefully clears things up for you and she'll start unless you got other issues. http://forums.hybridz.org/showthread.php?t=152178 this is the thread Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZXT_bean Posted August 19, 2009 Author Share Posted August 19, 2009 I am using a ford coil pack, part number f5su-12029-aa. I am going to try and decipher which coil is firing like you had suggested. Ill give a go at it in the morning. thanks for all the reply's. We will see where im at tomorrow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZXT_bean Posted August 19, 2009 Author Share Posted August 19, 2009 this according to the individual coil tests confirms my firing order. cyl 1&6 are paired to pin #10/coil A cyl 2&5 are paired to pin #12/coil C cyl 3&4 are paired to pin #11/coil B which confirms the A_C_B firing order. For my coil, that diag above is correct. Now that I have all my timing and firing order sorted out. The car still is a no start. I know its getting fuel, and obviously spark. I know my trigger wheel is clocked correctly, 6 teeth counter clockwise. What would be keeping it from firing? am I not giving it enough fuel? To much? All of my tunes screen shots are in the first post, any and all help is greatly appreciated! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
softopz Posted August 20, 2009 Share Posted August 20, 2009 how is the compression of the motor? what mods are your on your board ie jumpers? do you know your fuel pressure before cranking in the ON position? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZXT_bean Posted August 20, 2009 Author Share Posted August 20, 2009 i did a compression check when i purchased the parts car, it was about 125-133 across the board. not sure if thats low, but they were all in the same area. as for mods on the board, I havent done any. I have v3.57 board. so its all jumper shunts. I beleve I have them all in the right places. fuel pressure is in the high 40's. Ive had the car running. but now that ive tried to make this new tune, I cant seem to get it to fire. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
naviathan Posted August 20, 2009 Share Posted August 20, 2009 I know nobody has mentioned this, but looking at the settings you're doing one squirt per cycle. I had no luck getting my setup to start on that and had to go to two squirts per cycle. Also I've read some people had trouble with alternating injection. I did notice a difference in idle between simultaneous and alternating. Alternating was rough. Switch to two squirts and try simultaneous injection. Also check your plugs after trying to start it. If they're wet, you have way too much fuel. Look at your tables, cold start enrichment, etc... If the plugs are dry with no deposits, see if your injectors are even firing. I had the two fuses on my injectors leads blow one time without me noticing. I never did figure out why but it never happened again. Get an extra set of plugs and a spark plug cleaner from Harbor Freight. It'll save you a lot of time and money. Plugs tend to foul real easy when trying to get this thing started. Turn off and remove your wideband! At least until you get it running. You wouldn't want to damage the sensor just trying to get it started. You need to get it to at least idle on solid tables and maps then add the wideband back in. Another thing that threw me. I was using a GM idle air control and it wasn't working (seems that happens a lot) I had to remove it and just set the idle screw on the throttle body to hold the plate open enough to get it started and idling. Looks through everything. I think your maps are rich too, but that's just from memory (which is very foggy right now). Oh and I don't know about EDIS, but I know a typical setup would never run 0.0 trigger offset. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
naviathan Posted August 20, 2009 Share Posted August 20, 2009 i did a compression check when i purchased the parts car, it was about 125-133 across the board. not sure if thats low, but they were all in the same area. as for mods on the board, I havent done any. I have v3.57 board. so its all jumper shunts. I beleve I have them all in the right places. fuel pressure is in the high 40's. Ive had the car running. but now that ive tried to make this new tune, I cant seem to get it to fire. Compression sounds right for a turbo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
softopz Posted August 20, 2009 Share Posted August 20, 2009 Compression is okay, Sorry what I mean is what jumpers do you have in place? like ignition input / output. are your running the HALL/optical type or VR I guess you can take a pic a of your board front and back, we can take a look at it. ZXT bean Iam in the exact position you are I have had the car idling even driven it a couple of times, then it ends up fouling and not starting again unless I put new plugs in!? I have adjusted the maps and everything I know its very frustrating. We have pretty much IDENTICAL setups except you got a IC and a wideband...After 4 years working on the swap and the car(suspension, bushings, brakes interior) did a complete rebuilt. And the last year spending it on MS installation and tuning its quite frustrating...I have helped 3 people get their cars running and I cant seem to get this running! Iam really close to burning the car. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZXT_bean Posted August 27, 2009 Author Share Posted August 27, 2009 sorry ive been so busy lately. havent really had time for an update. I do plan on going out to the garage this weekend and getting some work done. so stay tuned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZXT_bean Posted August 30, 2009 Author Share Posted August 30, 2009 ok so Ive finally come across some time to make sure I had all of my jumpers in the correct locations. Here is a link to the mega manual depicting what all the jumpers are for. http://www.megamanual.com/index.html The differences on the V3.57 board (compared to the V3 thru-hole main board) are: Tach input selection jumper JP1 (near the copyright notice at the DB-37 end of the board) is now on a 3-position standard 0.100 inch header: Placing a jumper across positions 1 and 2 enables the variable reluctance (VR) circuit. Placing a jumper across positions 2 and 3 enables opto-isolator ("Hall") tach input. [*]Tach selection jumper J1 (near the center of the board, but a bit closer to the heat sink) is for routing the signal-conditioned tach signal to the processor. This is a 3x2 0.100 inch header. Only one jumper is used, the remaining positions are open. A jumper on pins 1 - 2 enables the opto-isolator. A jumper on pins 3 - 4 enables VR (variable reluctor) operation (non-inverted). A jumper on pins 5 - 6 is for an inverted VR signal. [*] Now I am unsure as to where I should have these jumpers. I currently have the JP1 jumper on pins 2 & 3, enabling the (*HALL*) tach input. On the J1 jumper, I have pins 3 - 4, which enables VR (variable reluctor) operation (non-inverted) Now are these correct? Should I have one of these or both in different locations? Are there any other jumpers or things I need to setup? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZXT_bean Posted August 30, 2009 Author Share Posted August 30, 2009 well it turns out I dont get a tach signal if I have the J1 jumped on pins 3 & 4. I do how ever get a signal if I put the jumper on pins 1 & 2. Now that it seems like I have all the jumper and such in place, It still wont fire over. It will sit and crank all day. Now ive gone through all of my ignition setting, they all seem to be correct. All my jumpers seem to be in the correct locations. Is there something horribly wrong with the tune im trying to use? Do I still have a major setting wrong some where? Ive changed the injector controls so that It will simultanously inject 2 squirts. here is a screen shot, and another copy of the tune. profunctionprep1.zip Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZXT_bean Posted September 3, 2009 Author Share Posted September 3, 2009 no one has any current advice? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
softopz Posted September 4, 2009 Share Posted September 4, 2009 What did it for me was deciphering the firing order , getting a fresh batterey and plugs. Vrooom it started. if you got all the ms side of things perfect than you need to start looking at the other forces. However I didnt understand your last message, so are you getting a proper tach signal? You need to run the Hall only not HAll and VR. Have you checked your timing with a light? whats ms showing in rpm when cranking? Hows your fuel pressure? how does that spark look if you hook up a plug to it and lay it on some metal ? Sometimes we overlook the basic things spark , fuel and air. then timing. edit Ill send you a copy of my msq we have an identical setup. Except for wideband. I just re looked at some of your cranking pulses and priming they seem high but I cant remember how mine are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
softopz Posted September 4, 2009 Share Posted September 4, 2009 Here you go. I was right your cranking and priming pulsewidths are really HIGH no wonder why your flooding. Get some new plugs and make sure your battery is topped up good luck squirter! First Tune.rar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZXT_bean Posted September 4, 2009 Author Share Posted September 4, 2009 thanks alot softopz. I would really like to try your tune, but I have no idea how to open up a .RAR file. what would I use to open it? would you be willing to post it as a zip file? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZXT_bean Posted September 4, 2009 Author Share Posted September 4, 2009 softopz, I figgured out that i could open the file using winzip.. so I loaded up your tune. does your car run on this tune? I still seem to be getting way to much fuel. Id like to share a log with everyone, but im not sure how much it will help at the moment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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