Starter help PLEASE!

[BLKMGK]

Okay, I've nearly got it running I double checked th etiming all over again. I thought sure it was right but when I cranked, got pressure, let off, then checked it was about 200 degrees off (ahem). Previously I had swung it 180 thinking it was wrong - duh!

 

Okay, so now it's pretty close and it's making all the right sounds. Just one problem, when the engine "kicks" the starter will disengage form the ring or deflect enough that it makes gawdawful sounds. Waaah!

 

I pulled the starter, teeth still look fine thank goodness, so does the flywheel. However it's not reliable and I can't allow this to continue. What can I do? This is a GM OEM starter from a late model CarpiceImpalla SS type application per JTR. No shimming involved, it just bolts on... and if I shimmed it I think that would make it worse, wouldn't it? It looks like maybe the nose doesn't stick in far enough but honestly I'm not sure. There's no real "play" on the bolts at all. Would removing the flywheel dust shield possibly help? I don't think it's hanging on that though...

 

So close, yet so far. I'll buy an aftermarket starter if that will fix this, I simply want it to start reliably is all! If the starter would crank correctly I could get a decent timing reading and maybe break it in! Friday still looks to be exhaust day but it'll probably have to come home on a trailer at this rate. Actually, it will anyway - no way am I going to make a maiden voyage that far without a few close in check outs. I already found a fitting that had sprung loose on the carb and leaked some fuel!

 

Anyone else had this problem? T56 trans, late model block, Centerforce flywheel. Mikelly, any troubles like this?

[BLKMGK]

I've mentioned this to a friend offline. He says he had to shim his GM starter. To me it almost sounds like the starter isn't coming close enough to the flywheel, not that it's too close? Would a shim be worthwhile to try or should I grit my teeth and overnight a Tilton, CSI, or TCI starter from Jeg's? I REALLY want to get it on the road for Saturday night and grinding a starter leaving the local cruise is just sooo uncool! I'm used to Ford stuff, stick starter in hole, run bolts up, turn key. NEVER had a Ford starter problem but then again I'm still using my 13 year old original 302 starter!

 

Heeelp!

 

and yes, I was up half the night tossing and turning over this

 

[ August 01, 2001: Message edited by: BLKMGK ]

[Mike C]

The tool you need is a paper clip. Manually engage the bendix to the flywheel and insert the straightened paper clip between the peak of a bendix tooth and the valley of the flywheel tooth. It should fit just like you are setting a mechanical valve train, not tight but touching both sides. If the gap is too large, you can put a washer under the outside bolt to rotate it in, or the correct way is to machine the mounting pad down slightly, I recommend to shim thicknesses so that you can flush mount or use 1 shim. If the gap is too tight, shim the starer out until it is correct.

[BLKMGK]

Truly stupid question - how do I get the bendix to manually engage? The poutside bolts brrings it closer? Seems bassackwards but I'm obviously pretty ignorant about starters!

 

And thank you, I was really in a panic and about to express a damned starter

[pparaska]

Jim, on my aftermarket mini-starter, I pulled the gear outward and wound some wire around the shaft behind it to hold it out while I made the measurement that Mike C mentioned. Trouble was getting in there with the bellhousing on and everything mounted in the car.

[BLKMGK]

I can pull the metal shield to get in there and have a peek, I'm not sure how good a view I'll get of it though. Ths starter is an OEM one with both ends of the gear supported and protected by a cast hood.

 

I'm told that starter shims are common on GM cars - nice. On the plus side I'll be able to find them easily and they should be cheap!

 

So, the bolt that's on the outside towards the frame rail whenshimmed raises the gear towards the flywheel. The other bolt then would obviously pull it away. To me it sounds like it's not fully engaging and needs to be pulled closer but I'm told by coworkers that this is probably not the case. I'm told that it's not engaging all the way beacause the nose of the gear is hitting preventing it from fully extending. Honestly I'm not sure but the advice here seems ot jive with what I think - that's it' too far away. I will try to measure to be sure (sigh).

 

Really appreciate the advice. Am asking opinions everywhere today Want it to be ready to drive darn it (lol). Might leave work early to tinker wiht it too!

[pparaska]

Jim, your buds at work may have a point about it being in too close to the crank and hitting the flywheel.

 

Anyway, go to any parts store to the HELP parts section. They make a pack that's an assortment of different thickness shims.

[Mike C]

I haven't monkeyed with one in awhile, but I think if you take the copper spacer and screw off the solenoid where it connects to the starter motor, then apply 12 volts to the switched side of solenoid, it will hold it engaged but not turn the motor. Be VERY carful testing this. Otherwise, just pry it as best you can out with a screwdriver. Some aftermarket starters have a hole just for this. I will never run another stock GM starter EVER after switching to nippondenso motored (toyota style) CVR starters, available from Jeg's for $150. I like this better than the more common hitachi motored mini-starters (like stock Datsun starters). I had a cell fail in the batt (only 10.2 volts) in my big block powered truck and it would STILL start with the CVR, GM starter only clicks with a dead cell! Ended all of my hot start problems as well.

[BLKMGK]

I saw those CVRs and was cnsidering one but will try to get this ne working first. I've got a Help! shim pack and am about to head to the garage - what fun! Neither brake lines nor mandral bend nor muffler showed up today. Tomorrow should see a bumper crop. On a down side the exhaust shop isn't sure what Friday looks like and wants me to call back tomorrow. If everything is here and looking good and they can't take me I'll be upset and might look for another shop. I'd hate to do that but time's a wasting and they don't work Saturdays

 

Starter shim first, we'll see how it goes. Sure does seem kind of screwy to have to do this though!

[BLKMGK]

Okay, I'm frustrated. Tried one shim on outside, tried two shim on outside, tried a single shim under both sides. I cannot tell any appreciable difference at all. I cannot get in there to see what's going on. Very edge of flywheel shows a little wear. I cannot tell if it's too far away or if it's too close and not fully extendingengaging. I think I'm giving up for the night. Will speak to my mechanic friend tomorrow, receive much grief, and hope that maybe he can help. Once the exhaust goes on the starter looks like it'll be MUCH harder to get to...

 

[update] Okay, I might have an idea here. No matter what I do the starter kicks out as soon as the motor begines to fire. On top of that I'm still seeing a ball of flame or two through the carb. I'm wondering if perhaps the timing is STILL screwed up. When I timed it last I cranked until I felt pressure building on #1 and let off the key. At that moment the balancer showed TDC - I've confirmed that TDC on balancer is highest point of travel upwards on #1. When I last did this I pulled the cap and found the rotor way off - 180+. What I'm thinking now is that perhaps the motor is kicking back and tryng to fire backwards - fighting the starter? If it weren't for the spectacular fireballs I'm seeing every now and again I wouldn't believe this to be true but... Plug wires are correct, I've triple checked. So close, yet so far! Am giving up for the night and will speak to mechanic friend tomorrow. He'll give me no end of grief but I might get some assistance on this and the timing issue.

 

This doesn't look encouraging -> http://pub29.ezboard.com/ffloridadragracingfrm5.showMessage?topicID=56.topic

 

[ August 01, 2001: Message edited by: BLKMGK ]

[Guest Anonymous]

I hope I can help... I had a 67 camaro with all sorts of starter problems. Ended up the block mounting pad was not square.

 

1st Try disconnecting the coil wire to see if the starter will turn the motor over. If it does not "kick out" the issue my be your timing. If it continues to kick out then the problem may be isolated to your starter.

 

If it is believed to be the timing, reset it this way. make sure you are on the compression stroke and turn engine until timing reads 14 -18 degrees BTDC. Pull cap and mark intake manifold with grease pen or crayon where the rotor is pointing. Put cap back on and turn the dist housing until #1 wire on the cap is aligned with the mark on the intake. The motor will crank with this amount of timing.

 

You also may consider push starting the car since you have a manual trans and set the timing after if fires. It will be easier on the starter once the timing is sorted out.

 

I know your level of frustration.

[Scottie-GNZ]

Jim,

 

couple of weeks ago we put an LT1 starter on my buddy's built-up 4.3 Buick turbo (4.1L + .040) and it spins that puppy over with ease. I am getting one and can get you one "inexpensively" if you interested. It is 10lbs lighter that a normal GM starter. E-mail me.

[BLKMGK]

Okay, will try getting it to 14 degrees and see. I HAVE tried spinning it over with the ignition off - it seems to spin fine! It only appears to really "kick" when the ignition is trying to fire the motor. Almost like it's pushing the motor the wrong way..?

 

Scotty, this is the GM starter used in the Impalla SS which IS an LT1. However if it's 10lbs lighter than a regular GM starter I'm scared - this isn't exactly a lightweight. I owe you e-mail anyway so I'll get in touch with you today.

 

I'm off and will be headed over to my friend's shop to see about some assistance. It could be something easy for him and something stupid that I'm missing here. I've not had to set timing on "new" motors but maybe once or twice so it's quite possible I've done something in ignorance.

[Modern Motorsports Ltd]

NOt sure if this is continued from another similar thread a couple weeks back or not...anyhow, I posted their and it still stands here: did you try turning your dizzy at all while someone is cranking your motor over? slowly turn dizzy a bit clockwise and if it doesn't fire then turn it back ccw, if you set it at 0 degrees it won't like that too much/especialy if you happened to get it after top dead centre. Just leave your dizzy holddown bolt less than very tight and rotate it 1/2" radial either way from current setting slowly while cranking. And have your timing gun ready to set it just right once it fires.

 

PS I assume you have an aircleaner on but wondering how you see the flames??? Aircleaners are good/flames bad!

[BLKMGK]

I'm throwing in the towel. It's going in for an exhaust tomorrow and while it's there starter shimming and timing setting will be ordered up. I've turned th emotor over until it hit 10degrees, set the distributor to fire, and cranked. It almost fires but the starter kicks out and it dies. I've shimmed a couple of different ways but on my back with no room it's a bear. On a lift it would be cake! I don't want to trash this flywheel if I can help it.

 

Oh, and I still see a fireball out the top every so often. No aircleaner on it so I get to see the full display. No one but me around to work on it so working the jumper wire, the throttle, a timing light, and twisting the distributor is a no-go.

 

Muffler (thank you Mike!) and mandral bend showed up today. The only things missing are an exhaust system and two braided brake lines. My fingers are crossed that the brake lines show up tomorrow! Trailer is unavailable due to a dyno delivery. I'll be having to order up a rollback ($$). I hope to get the trailer for the ruturn ride home. Wish me luck!

[eugene]

Definitely sounds like it's not timed right if you have normal starter operation with ignition disabled. Here is yet another, but sure fire way to find TDC comp #1. Remove #1 plug (this method is even easier with all plugs removed). Put compressed air in #1 hole and rotate engine clockwise until it stops turning. When it becomes too difficult to turn, this means that #1 piston is starting to rise on compression stroke. Now remove the air and rotate until timing tabs are where you want them.