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240z electronic ignition help


Mikez31ss

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You should ignore w/g and b/w as due to the PO's modification those do not supply the necessary +12V to the ignition system.

 

The diagram is correct, have you been able to do the tests from my last post? (Test if you now have +12V at HEI terminal 'B' when the ignition is on and when starting)

I have 12 volts at B (and C) to ground in ignition on. I haven't tested it when cranking.

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I have 12 volts at B (and C) to ground in ignition on. I haven't tested it when cranking.

 

1. Good, now please test B/coil (+) to ground when cranking, if you then still have +12V the power supply to the ignition is OK!

2. In the current setup with the ignition on (and +12V at B/coil(+)), do you get a spark when putting a wire across red and green?

 

Good luck,

Adrian

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1. Good, now please test B/coil (+) to ground when cranking, if you then still have +12V the power supply to the ignition is OK!

2. In the current setup with the ignition on (and +12V at B/coil(+)), do you get a spark when putting a wire across red and green?

 

Good luck,

Adrian

Ok I have power to B (and C) and coil positive in ignition on and when cranking. No power to G or W and no sparking between red and green. Bad module? I haven't checked the air gap yet but with no power going to the dizzy that isn't going to matter right now...right?

 

BTW, the module is well grounded. I ran a ground wire to the module backing plate and I also tried grounding one of the mounting bolts.

Edited by Mikez31ss
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Ok I have power to B (and C) and coil positive in ignition on and when cranking. No power to G or W and no sparking between red and green. Bad module? I haven't checked the air gap yet but with no power going to the dizzy that isn't going to matter right now...right?

 

BTW, the module is well grounded. I ran a ground wire to the module backing plate and I also tried grounding one of the mounting bolts.

 

Good, so your power supply to is ok in ignition and starting, and you have the proper +12V on B and grounded the module. As you have already tested the coil for continuity, that just leaves the module itself and ignition triggering for a closer inspection.

 

You won't see a voltage on G and W (except when cranking. and then only a very low voltage, probably below 1 Volt due to the low cranking speed), as the module measures the voltage coming from G and W. No need to worry about this.

 

 

1. As the power supply is ok, you should see +12 Volt on the HEI modules output terminals B and C (e.g. the coil) as soon as you switch on the ignition. If there is no output voltage on B and C there is a good chance that the HEI module is defective, but lets see how test 2 turns out.

 

2. Here is another trigger test: remove the pickup's green wire from the modules terminal G. Connect the wire from your test light to B/coil (+) for +12V. When you now touch the modules terminal G with the test light and then remove the test light, a spark should be triggered (the test light won't come on with this test, don't worry about that).

 

- If you now get a spark, continue to test the air gap as posted by nosebleedZ.

- If there is still no spark then your module is most probably defective. Either get a new one or try reinstalling the E12-80 module and do test 2. again.

 

Which HEI module do you use, can you post the brand and product number/name?

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Good, so your power supply to is ok in ignition and starting, and you have the proper +12V on B and grounded the module. As you have already tested the coil for continuity, that just leaves the module itself and ignition triggering for a closer inspection.

 

You won't see a voltage on G and W (except when cranking. and then only a very low voltage, probably below 1 Volt due to the low cranking speed), as the module measures the voltage coming from G and W. No need to worry about this.

 

Okay...G and W just sort of relay signals between the coil and dizzy?

 

1. As the power supply is ok, you should see +12 Volt on the HEI modules output terminals B and C (e.g. the coil) as soon as you switch on the ignition. If there is no output voltage on B and C there is a good chance that the HEI module is defective, but lets see how test 2 turns out.

 

Ok..power on B and C... so bring on test 2.

 

2. Here is another trigger test: remove the pickup's green wire from the modules terminal G. Connect the wire from your test light to B/coil (+) for +12V. When you now touch the modules terminal G with the test light and then remove the test light, a spark should be triggered (the test light won't come on with this test, don't worry about that).

 

I'll do that tomorrow. This is testing a different function of the module than putting a wire across G and W as we did on the first page of the thread?

 

- If you now get a spark, continue to test the air gap as posted by nosebleedZ.

 

Ok...I downloaded a '79 FSM tonight so that should tell me how to measure and adjust the air gap. Looks like there is very little adjusting headroom there. I remember when I installed the pick-up coil I had to adjust the stator to keep it from snagging the reluctor. Or was it the other way round ;)

- If there is still no spark then your module is most probably defective. Either get a new one or try reinstalling the E12-80 module and do test 2. again.

 

Which HEI module do you use, can you post the brand and product number/name?

 

Well that sux. It wasn't really expensive but it came highly recommended. The brand name is Proform...part# 66944c

I'm not partial to either the e1280 or the HEI but if it's a part that is prone to failure I'd rather replace a $20 part than a $150 part.

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Okay...G and W just sort of relay signals between the coil and dizzy?

Yes, but its a bit more complex ;) The pickup coil creates a small voltage impulse (like an electric guitar pickup), the HEI module receives this signal via G and W, amplifies it using an transistor and then checks when the signal passes zero volt. At that precise moment the HEI power transistor is switched off to open the connection to the coil, which triggers the spark.

 

 

Ok..power on B and C... so bring on test 2.

I'll do that tomorrow. This is testing a different function of the module than putting a wire across G and W as we did on the first page of the thread?

If you have power on B and C then thats good news as it shows that the module is at least partially functional.

Test 2 is testing the same function, but uses a different approach to convince the incoming transistor in the HEI module to trigger the power transistor.

 

Well that sux. It wasn't really expensive but it came highly recommended. The brand name is Proform...part# 66944c

I'm not partial to either the e1280 or the HEI but if it's a part that is prone to failure I'd rather replace a $20 part than a $150 part.

Good point. No warranty left on the HEI module?

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Yes, but its a bit more complex ;) The pickup coil creates a small voltage impulse (like an electric guitar pickup), the HEI module receives this signal via G and W, amplifies it using an transistor and then checks when the signal passes zero volt. At that precise moment the HEI power transistor is switched off to open the connection to the coil, which triggers the spark.

I'm going to lie and and say I understand perfectly ;) Seriously though I get the general principle.

 

 

If you have power on B and C then thats good news as it shows that the module is at least partially functional.

Test 2 is testing the same function, but uses a different approach to convince the incoming transistor in the HEI module to trigger the power transistor.

In that the power is going from the coil through the module to the dizzy and then back through the module to the coil? Good but not good enough lol. Unfortunately test 2 failed.

Good point. No warranty left on the HEI module?

Yes, I talked to Summit today and I can send it back for a refund or exchange. I took the module by Autozone to be tested but they said they had no harness for a 4 pin HEI. Idgits. NAPA supposedly can test 4 pin modules but there isn't a NAPA close enough to make it worthwhile.

The '79 FSM wasn't much help on setting the air gap. I just loosened the screws holding the stator in place and moved it to an equal setting between the six points of the stator and the six points of the reluctor. It was good as it was but spec is .012"-.020" so I set them all at exactly .016".

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I'm going to lie and and say I understand perfectly ;) Seriously though I get the general principle.

 

In that the power is going from the coil through the module to the dizzy and then back through the module to the coil? Good but not good enough lol. Unfortunately test 2 failed.

 

Yes, I talked to Summit today and I can send it back for a refund or exchange. I took the module by Autozone to be tested but they said they had no harness for a 4 pin HEI. Idgits. NAPA supposedly can test 4 pin modules but there isn't a NAPA close enough to make it worthwhile.

The '79 FSM wasn't much help on setting the air gap. I just loosened the screws holding the stator in place and moved it to an equal setting between the six points of the stator and the six points of the reluctor. It was good as it was but spec is .012"-.020" so I set them all at exactly .016".

 

A gap of .016" is perfect.

 

Ok, here is a third and final test to make sure the HEI module is really defective, if this one won't work then i am quite sure the module is gone.

- Connect a 12V bulb or your testlight in place of the coil. When you now turn on the ignition, the bulb/testlight should switch on.

- Now engage the starter, the bulb/testlight should blink as long as the starter turns

 

If you need to send back the HEI module, you might want to test your E12-80 module using test steps 1 & 2 from my post a day ago in the meantime :)

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A gap of .016" is perfect.

 

Ok, here is a third and final test to make sure the HEI module is really defective, if this one won't work then i am quite sure the module is gone.

- Connect a 12V bulb or your testlight in place of the coil. When you now turn on the ignition, the bulb/testlight should switch on.

- Now engage the starter, the bulb/testlight should blink as long as the starter turns

 

If you need to send back the HEI module, you might want to test your E12-80 module using test steps 1 & 2 from my post a day ago in the meantime :)

Ok I'll try that tomorrow. I think I'll skip testing the e1280 module though. I have plenty to keep me busy on this car while I wait for another HEI module.

 

Like so?

post-7958-12689881718165_thumb.jpg

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Exactly!

Ok but we had already established that there was no power between the coil posts but I tried it anyway. It didn't work. I'll try a new HEI module now. If that doesn't work then I really will be frustrated. The wiring is so simple. I'll let you know what happens w/ the new module. Thanks!
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Yesterday you mentioned that there was power between B & C (coil terminals, test 1.), did something change between the test or typo? Just want to be sure i don't miss anything :)

Not exactly...poor choice of words maybe. I said there was power to B and C or in other words there was power between B or coil "+" and ground, and power between C or coil "-" and ground. Never between B and C or between the two coil terminals.

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Good luck!

Thanks Adrian. I haven't had a chance to do much yet. I did have time to install the new module and check the connections with the meter. I have pretty much the same readings as before.

12v from B to ground.

12v from C to ground.

12v from either coil terminal to ground.

1v from G to ground.

1v from W to ground.

I'm stumped here. I don't understand why the wiring worked for the points distributor but not for the D6K8 distributor.

Apparent the hot wire is fine. If it isn't hot in run and start then the points distributor would not have worked, right?

The module is grounded from the metal plate on back. And I added a ground wire from one of the bolts used to mount the module.

The points ignition had the black ground wire to the coil negative terminal. But that isn't necessary with the electronic ignition.

If I understand correctly, all the new system needs for power is a wire that is powered in start and run.

The only ground it needs is for the ignition module.

For what it's worth here is another diagram of the original wiring and the new wiring.

post-7958-12695715105184_thumb.jpg

post-7958-12695715345487_thumb.jpg

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Don't worry, your wiring is correct, the HEI module only needs the hot wire and ground as supply! The black wire coming from the distributor/breaker can be ignored.

The second chart is also correct, its only missing the ground connection to the module and the ignition/start wires from the ignition key are wired together.

 

The next test now should be the one with the test light wired in instead of the coil, turning the starter should result in the test light flickering.

 

If your HEI module has a current control feature (such as newer Bosch modules), then you won't see the test light coming on before the first impulses from the distributors magnetic pickup, so turning the starter for at least 1-2 seconds should give you real feedback.

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Still no spark. I checked the pick-up coil again and it reads 0 Ohms. What the hell...

I don't remember if I checked it before or after I installed it. I'll pull it out tomorrow and see if I might have damaged it somehow.

Edited by Mikez31ss
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Thanks for the pictures! Just saw that you have a '73 240Z, based on the John Hull charts you were using i was assuming you had a '70-'72 Z.

 

1. You might have used an incompatible measuring mode on your multimeter. Try this, connect the black wire to the middle COM socket and then set the mode switch to "Ω 2.0K" (two positions clockwise from the setting in the photo). What resistance do you get in this mode when measuring the pickup coil?

 

2. Your wiring looks correct on the photos! It would be good to have another look at the +12V (b/w wire) supply, as everything else looks good. You have posted that you have 12 volts on B, could you also measure the voltage between B and ground while cranking?

 

3. Could you try to do a photo of the backside of the tacho while it is still installed? (No need to remove it) Would like to find out if its the three or four wire type, that will help in the wire identification

 

P.s. from what i see in the '73 manual, the original wires would be like this:

Black/White #1: +12V from ignition switch to ballast resistor (currently connected as +12V supply to coil(+)/HEI module)

Green/White: from ballast resistor to four wire tacho (disconnected)

Black/White #2: from four wire tacho to coil (+) (disconnected)

Black: from distributor/breaker points to coil (-) (disconnected)

Black/Yellow: to throttle opener vacuum control solenoid (disconnected, solenoid missing in your car?)

Green: no idea yet

Edited by vantage
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