240z electronic ignition help

[Mikez31ss]

Got hold of a Proform 66944C for testing, the second bulb test i have described works with the module to check its health. Wire it as in the included chart, when you then touch terminal 'G' with a wire coming from 'B', the bulb should flash. Can you do this test and let us know how it turned out?

Hey Adrian...thanks for hanging in there. I tried that test and the bulb lights up that way. I haven't been able to test the distributor yet. I did use the meter to test for resistance when rotating the shaft. With the probes attached to the pick-up coil wires I spun the shaft slowly. At a certain point in the rotation, the meter drops off to 0 ohms. I don't know if that means anything.

[vantage]

Excellent! So this test proved that your module is ok and functional!

 

1. Reinstall the HEI module in the car and wire it to power and the coil. Now, when you do the same test (touch 'g' with a wire coming from 'B') as you did with the successful bulb test, you should get a spark every time. Does that work too?

 

2. If test 1. was successful, try wiring the distributor green to HEI 'W' and red to HEI 'R' again and turn it by hand (try different speeds, slow and fast), do you now get a spark too?

 

Regarding the Multimeter test, i've checked the manual for your multimeter and unfortunately its missing a low voltage mode (mV or 1-2 Volts), which we need for testing the distributor, so test 2. should be more helpful as we now know that the HEI module is good

[Mikez31ss]

Excellent! So this test proved that your module is ok and functional!

 

1. Reinstall the HEI module in the car and wire it to power and the coil. Now, when you do the same test (touch 'g' with a wire coming from 'B') as you did with the successful bulb test, you should get a spark every time. Does that work too?

 

2. If test 1. was successful, try wiring the distributor green to HEI 'W' and red to HEI 'R' again and turn it by hand (try different speeds, slow and fast), do you now get a spark too?

 

Regarding the Multimeter test, i've checked the manual for your multimeter and unfortunately its missing a low voltage mode (mV or 1-2 Volts), which we need for testing the distributor, so test 2. should be more helpful as we now know that the HEI module is good

Wow...you are on top of things aren't you

I'll try those tests as soon as I can get my car's battery recharged.

[Mikez31ss]

Excellent! So this test proved that your module is ok and functional!

 

1. Reinstall the HEI module in the car and wire it to power and the coil. Now, when you do the same test (touch 'g' with a wire coming from 'B') as you did with the successful bulb test, you should get a spark every time. Does that work too?

 

2. If test 1. was successful, try wiring the distributor green to HEI 'W' and red to HEI 'R' again and turn it by hand (try different speeds, slow and fast), do you now get a spark too?

 

Regarding the Multimeter test, i've checked the manual for your multimeter and unfortunately its missing a low voltage mode (mV or 1-2 Volts), which we need for testing the distributor, so test 2. should be more helpful as we now know that the HEI module is good

Test 1 was good. Test 2 failed.

This is now my only car so I installed the points distributor and the old plugs. But... it won't start

I have fuel and spark. I'm sure I have compression. The points gap was a little wide but I adjusted it to .020. The distributor shaft is keyed so I know it isn't 180 off. The timing is probably a little off but surely not enough to keep the motor from running.

I dunno...

Tried again this evening and it's trying to start.

Edited April 24, 2010 by Mikez31ss

[Mikez31ss]

I took the 280zx dizzy by an electronics repair shop today. According to his testing the pick-up coil is bad. Apparently my multimeter sux

So that's three new pick-up coils defective. This is crazy...

[vantage]

Regarding the points setup, does it appear to nearly catch on? Then your timing is probably too retarded. Distributor finger and cap are ok?

 

Thats really bad luck to catch three defective distributor pickups in a row. On the good side, if you can get the pickup replaced or fixed, you should be able to get your HEI or E12-80 setup working at last

Edited April 25, 2010 by vantage

[Mikez31ss]

Regarding the points setup, does it appear to nearly catch on? Then your timing is probably too retarded. Distributor finger and cap are ok?

 

Thats really bad luck to catch three defective distributor pickups in a row. On the good side, if you can get the pickup replaced or fixed, you should be able to get your HEI or E12-80 setup working at last

How do you fix a pick-up coil? If I got 3 defective coils I figure there's a better than average chance of getting a fourth one

Yes it's trying really hard. It catches momentarily. I got a little backfire once. That's a little scary w/ a leaky carb

I haven't had a chance to try again since Friday.

[vantage]

You can have the pickup coil recoiled (rewired) but i doubt that this would be economic considering the low prices of a coil. Can you get a new pickup coil (and maybe a decent multimeter while you're at it)?

 

Did you get the backfire through the carbs (air box coughing smoke) or through the exhaust? The later one would be an indicator that the distributor is installed 180º from the correct position, but as the axle is keyed that would be unlikely. Maybe the cap is installed 180º (no idea if thats possible or your spark wires? Just a thought. Check if the plugs are fouled with gas, might be the case after trying to start the engine several times.

 

Have you tried to retard timing by turning the distributor?

[Mikez31ss]

You can have the pickup coil recoiled (rewired) but i doubt that this would be economic considering the low prices of a coil. Can you get a new pickup coil (and maybe a decent multimeter while you're at it)?

 

Did you get the backfire through the carbs (air box coughing smoke) or through the exhaust? The later one would be an indicator that the distributor is installed 180º from the correct position, but as the axle is keyed that would be unlikely. Maybe the cap is installed 180º (no idea if thats possible or your spark wires? Just a thought. Check if the plugs are fouled with gas, might be the case after trying to start the engine several times.

 

Have you tried to retard timing by turning the distributor?

Yeah pickup coils are cheap until you get to your third or fourth one

I picked up number 4 today counting the one that came in the rebuilt dizzy. I bought this one locally though so if it is bad I can return it. Matter of fact I might stick one of the others in the new box and return it. They all came from BorgWarner so I wouldn't even feel guilty about it

I checked the shaft and the way it is keyed offset it would be impossible to get it backwards. The wires and cap are correct too. The caps have marks identifying the front.

The backfire was through a carb. I have either a bad float or the 8psi pump is unseating the valve that should be shutting off the gas flow when the bowl is full. I don't have an air box. I've got 3 Webers w/ K&N filters. That's part of the reason

I wanted to upgrade the ignition system.

Tomorrow I'll either take the new pickup to the electronics store to be tested or just install it and put the 280zx dizzy back in and see if it fires up. I'll keep you updated.

Oh yeah, I'm going to install a 280zx alternator too. I think I can handle it but consider yourself warned lol.

The PO sent a new aluminum radiator with the car so I'm going to install that too. I still have 2 12" fans and my Flexalite controller kit from my shiro so I should have no problem wiring that up. I'm not expecting any real performance benefit but at the least it should make valve adjustments easier because I'll have clear access to the crank bolt.

I'll need to get a volt meter too I suppose. And get the tach working.

BTW, it may just be a coincidence but the motor didn't try to start until I put the tach back in and bolted it down. Probably a coincidence.

I'm not sure I can afford a good multimeter and I leaned not to buy cheap tools long ago. A Fluke is definitely not in the budget. The one I have was supposed to be decent but it was a handmedown and it is old.

As far as the timing, I tried both. Now I know which way is retarding and which way is advancing though so I'm better off than I was. Theoretically at least

[Mikez31ss]

Installed the new pickup...no spark. I dunno anymore

I may go by the electronics store to test it. Is there anything else in the distributor that would prevent it from making spark?

Everything below the pickup is just for timing advance, correct?

And I'm guessing that part 6 "magnet assembly" in the distributor diagram doesn't actually have real magnetic properties?

I think I'm going to order another 280zx dizzy from the company that sold me this one. And then I'm going to return the "new" one as defective but send the old one back. Yeah, I know that isn't really doing the right thing

[vantage]

Backfire through a carb sounds like the spark happens in the intake phase, are you sure the spark wires are connected in the correct order to the distributor cap?

 

The ignition won't work at all if the four wire tacho is removed, as one of the coil wires goes through the tacho connector. So if you pull the tacho connector, you disconnect one side of the coil too.

 

You can get quite a decent multimeter for $20-$40, this one looks good as example:

http://www.amazon.com/Mastech-Ranging-Digital-Multimeter-MS8221/dp/B0006GD9Z6/ref=sr_1_1

I would love to have a Fluke or even an Agilent but they are quite pricey, i use a Voltcraft AT-200 most of the time.

 

There is a chance that your Proform module is not compatible with the distributor coil/magnets output signal, can you do the following tests:

 

1. Swap the coil wires from the distributor coil, e.g. connect red to HEI module 'G' and green to HEI module 'W'.

 

2. Could you wire in the E12-80 module to check if you get a spark before you order a a second 280ZX distributor. I don't have a 280ZX distributor/coil at hand so unfortunately cannot do a test with the Proform module.

[Mikez31ss]

Backfire through a carb sounds like the spark happens in the intake phase, are you sure the spark wires are connected in the correct order to the distributor cap?

 

Double and triple checked...100% sure. My cap has #1 marked. My wires are marked. The firing order is 1-5-3-6-2-4. I'm sure the wires are correct at the dizzy and the cylinders

 

The ignition won't work at all if the four wire tacho is removed, as one of the coil wires goes through the tacho connector. So if you pull the tacho connector, you disconnect one side of the coil too.

 

The tach connector was plugged in but the tach body was not installed in the space it normally occupies.

 

You can get quite a decent multimeter for $20-$40, this one looks good as example:

http://www.amazon.com/Mastech-Ranging-Digital-Multimeter-MS8221/dp/B0006GD9Z6/ref=sr_1_1

I would love to have a Fluke or even an Agilent but they are quite pricey, i use a Voltcraft AT-200 most of the time.

 

I'll look into that.

 

There is a chance that your Proform module is not compatible with the distributor coil/magnets output signal, can you do the following tests:

 

1. Swap the coil wires from the distributor coil, e.g. connect red to HEI module 'G' and green to HEI module 'W'.

 

2. Could you wire in the E12-80 module to check if you get a spark before you order a a second 280ZX distributor. I don't have a 280ZX distributor/coil at hand so unfortunately cannot do a test with the Proform module.

 

I tried both yesterday. No spark either way. I checked the compatibility chart at Summit and the proform is compatible with all vehicles that use the 4 pin HEI module.

[vantage]

Hmm, not sure why you would get a backfire through the carbs if the wiring is correct, hard to say if you don't stand in front of the engine.

 

The Proform is compatible with vehicles that use a 4 pin HEI but not necessarily with your 280ZX distributor coil. But even if the HEI module is not compatible with your pickup coil. the E12-80 should be!

 

Could you ask your electronics store if they have a scope? If so, give them a visit with your distributor and the installed pickup coil and connect the two output wires to the scope. Watch the screen as you turn the distributor by hand, the picture should look somewhat like the one i have attached. If you just get a flat line instead, then there is indeed something wrong with your pickup coil and magnetic ring.

This is the best test for a coil pickup so you will know for sure what the condition is.

[Mikez31ss]

Hmm, not sure why you would get a backfire through the carbs if the wiring is correct, hard to say if you don't stand in front of the engine.

 

The Proform is compatible with vehicles that use a 4 pin HEI but not necessarily with your 280ZX distributor coil. But even if the HEI module is not compatible with your pickup coil. the E12-80 should be!

 

Could you ask your electronics store if they have a scope? If so, give them a visit with your distributor and the installed pickup coil and connect the two output wires to the scope. Watch the screen as you turn the distributor by hand, the picture should look somewhat like the one i have attached. If you just get a flat line instead, then there is indeed something wrong with your pickup coil and magnetic ring.

This is the best test for a coil pickup so you will know for sure what the condition is.

That electronics repair shop doesn't have a scope. Not much of a shop is it?

I got the new distributor in tonight. I have spark now. I wasn't able to get it started though. This car has been very hard to start since I got it. I was hoping the electronic ignition would help that

I'll try again tomorrow. The dizzy came with an e1280 module. I'm using it. I'm tempted to try out the HEI module... maybe later on I'll try it.

The only things I've changed since the last time the car ran was to replace the spacers/o-rings on the carbs and added a FPR and fuel pressure gauge. The gauge reads 8psi but I can't adjust it until the car is running. I know 8psi is way too much for Weber carbs.

I snapped a couple of pics to set your mind at ease about the plug wires

[vantage]

Ok, so the mystery is solved, there is something wrong with your original refurbished distributor, probably the stator (magnetic ring) or the coil or both. Since you have been through four coils, i would assume that the magnetic ring or assembly is at fault.

 

Spark wires look good! I don't think you get that much more power out of your HEI module compared to the E12-80 but replacement modules are much cheaper.

 

Webers (at least DCNF) would like to see 3-4 psi, could you try to lower the pressure in small steps and see what happens when you start?

 

1. Can you post some details what happens when you try to start the car, e.g. does it nearly catch on, just turns the engine, still backfiring (where? carbs and/or exhaust?), any kickback on the pistons (knocking)?

 

2. Do you have the factory choke lever connected to your carbs? Does the setting of the choke lever make a difference to the engine when trying to start?

 

3. How do the plugs look like immediately after you tried to start, bone dry or wet? With dry plugs you have either an issue with the carbs not delivering enough fuel (e.g. too lean mixture) or you might have a vacuum leak so your engine sucks in too much air with the same effect, a too lean mixture. Wet plugs indicate a much too rich carb setup, not enough air, or the spark is too weak.

 

4. When you hook up a multimeter to the battery + and -, what voltage do you have when you turn the starter? Its ok if the voltage goes down to 10 volts, but if you see 8-9 volts or less you spark might be very weak, so it fails to ignite the fuel/air mix. Its not unusual that an old battery is too tired to deliver enough current/voltage when trying to start, even though it would show a healthy 12-13 volts without load after charging.

[Mikez31ss]

Hey Adrian...I'm not ignoring your questions but I have a question. What do you think about this pic...you think the rebuilder installed the shaft 180 degrees off?

Edited May 5, 2010 by Mikez31ss

[vantage]

Looks like he did! Check out what happens if you swap the spark cables by 180º, if the engine then starts you need to correct the rotor shaft position by 180º (check out distributor chart on previous page).

[Mikez31ss]

Arrrgggg...I'm beginning to feel really unlucky

I'm a little reluctant to disassemble this dizzy because I can send it back. If I screw it up then I may not be able to send it back for an exchange.

I'm looking at that diagram...is it just a matter of removing everything from the top and turning part #9 "rotor shaft assembly" around 180 degrees or do I need to disassemble the whole thing and rotate #12 "shaft assembly"?

The way I see it I have 3 options:

1. take parts 4 through 8 from the new dizzy and put them in the old dizzy.

2. disassemble the new dizzy and reorient the shaft

3. send the new dizzy back for exchange

 

Other than the obvious malfunctioning aspect, I think the old dizzy might actually be built better. The new dizzy is impossible to get the air gap perfect and when I rotate it by hand it occasionally "catches" and has to be forced to turn. It's also noisy.

The old one rotates smoothly without noise.

One thing I noticed when trying to set the air gap on the new dizzy...it actually has magnetic field... i.e. the screwdriver was drawn to the magnet assembly. The old dizzy showed no magnetic attraction at all.

[vantage]

You can still feel unlucky if you dont find out while the car is not running. Right now you are on track!

 

1. Swap the spark cables 180º to check that the engine starts now

2. Exchange the magnetic ring between the two distributors and see if the old one works now. Whatever you send back then, (accidentaly the new distributor with the old magnetic ring) is left to you

 

I have never rebuild a 280ZX distributor but would assume that only #12 needs to be turned 180º to fix this.

[sicj]

not to hijack but I thought solving my problem could add to this thread.

 

 

I started having cut out issue when driving. Then It finally would not re-start.

 

The MSD Blaster 2 coil measured 1k ohms over the spec on the secondary winding. I replaced the coil.

 

I had my HEI module tested at Auto Zone. It checked out fine.

 

Now only when I connect the HEI B-tab to the Coil +, I DO NOT get 12v @ the coil +. very strange.

If I remove the HEI B wire I get 12v.

It's like the HEI module is not allowing the 12v to get past the coil + when hooked up to the coil.

 

The Dist. pickup is measuring .374 K ohms not hooked up

 

All new wires/tabs installed.