240z electronic ignition help

[vantage]

I am still waiting for the coil mount being finished by a CNC workshop, its currently installed using cable ties. After the coilpack is mounted securely, i'll have a dyno session

[Mikez31ss]

I am still waiting for the coil mount being finished by a CNC workshop, its currently installed using cable ties. After the coilpack is mounted securely, i'll have a dyno session

Probably what we call zip ties. Zip ties rock

Some pics of the fancy new mount when it comes in are requested.

Ok I did indeed jump the b/w to the black. I corrected that and all is well there. Except the indicator lights don't work and the turn signals operate very slowly. Could be blown bulbs on the indicators and the turn signals may have always been slow.

So I'll try starting the car tomorrow. The spark is very bright and I have 3psi w/ the new pump and FPR. I'm 99% sure the head gasket didn't blow while the car sat idle so I should have compression. The car ran great before all this "improving" so it should still be capable of running great. It was always hard to start. I say always...I've started it maybe 10 times and driven it maybe 5 times

The PO kept a can of starting fluid so it has a history of hard starting. I was hoping the electronic ignition would solve that.

Now I just want it to start. I really want to start it and make sure the timing is spot on before I take on the carbs.

[vantage]

Keep in mind that you need to connect the B/W wire to the regulators IG input, or your alternator won't charge the battery.

A posting on zhome (http://www.zhome.com/ZCMnL/tech/280Alt.html) indicates that the terminal 'L' on the new alternator is the one to connect the B/W wire to (see also special note about engine run on at the end of the article):

 

4. Connect the black with a white stripe wire to the white with black stripe wire. This connects the "L" terminal to a switched 12V.

The indicator (dashboard) lights are part of the turn signal circuit, if they don't work they are either blown or there is a ground problem. Slow turn signals indicate that the flash unit has not enough current to work properly (its a simple bimetal switch so it will blink faster the more current flows). Check your battery voltage and the turn signal bulbs to see if they are broken or the connections or sockets are corroded.

 

Let us now how starting the car works out, good luck!

[Mikez31ss]

I used this page as a guide:

http://datsunzgarage.com/engine/index.htm

I added the proper diode in the "L" wire of the "T" plug with the diode facing the plug. Looks like the same procedure in your link so I think I should be okay there.

On the other thing...I just had the battery charged and the TS bulbs all work. I did remove the airdam and front turn signals to do some work. I'll check to see if the connections are tight but as I said, the lights all work so that is probably not where the problem is.

FWIW the lights flash noticeably faster as hazard lights.

Maybe a problem w/ the TS flasher?

[vantage]

Indicator lights use a different flashing unit than the hazard light, so a difference in speed should not be a concern. If you have a problem with the TS flasher, then none of the bulbs would work. I guess that your indicator (instrument) lights are blown or there is a ground issue.

[Mikez31ss]

Thanks Adrian. I'll save that problem for later. I posted this pic on another forum and one poster said the position of the rotor as shown in the pic is correct. I would think that it shows the shaft is 180 degrees off as I mentioned in this thread. Am I wrong?

 

[Mikez31ss]

I tried to start the motor today. It wasn't even coming close to firing up. Then there was a pop and a puff of smoke from the distributor. I'm guessing it was from the ignition module. I don't know what else it could have been. Everything inside of the distributor looks normal.

This was so simple and should have been an easy modification. I don't even know what I did wrong. I've been maintaining and repairing my own cars for over 10 years. I've done timing belts, repaired ecu's, built a motor, etc etc but this is making me feel like an idiot.

Now I really am thinking of going back to a points based distributor just to get it running

 

Later that day...

I was afraid that the e1280 module was fried but apparently it isn't. I checked for spark and I still have spark. I don't want to keep cranking on it after the pop & smoke thing though.

Edited June 30, 2010 by Mikez31ss

[vantage]

Looks like the rotor is turned 180º. Your distributor is at ignition phase cylinder 1 (as can be seen on the balancer mark), so the rotor must point above the distributor clamp on the left side. Of course you can always swap the spark wires 180º to make this work.

 

Here is a picture from the factory manual:

http://www.atlanticz.ca/zclub/techtips/distributor/distributor_clock.gif

 

Pop & smoke: i am quite sure you experienced a backfire through the carbs (e.g. spark in the intake phase of the cylinder). That would result in a loud popping sound and a bit of smoke coming from the engine department (from the air box/carbs).

 

Try this, remove all spark wires from the dist cap, mark each with the cylinder number, then start by plugging in the spark wire for cylinder #1 in the correct HV terminal (on the left side above the clamp, the side of the terminal is marked with a vertical line).

Now try to start for just 2-3 seconds (so you dont flood the other cylinders) and listen what the engine says:

 

- Do you get a backfire through the carbs? -> Spark wire goes to wrong cylinder, ignition in the intake phase.

- Backfire through the exhaust? -> Rotor or wires are 180º wrong, ignition on the exhaust phase, igniting unburned gas.

- Does the engine kicks back? -> Wire is probably correct but timing much too advanced, retard timing by turning the distributor a bit and try again.

- Does the engine seem willing to turn, maybe even turns a bit faster? -> Then the spark wire is correct, add the next spark wire (cylinder #4 in the next HV terminal clockwise).

 

If the the wire for cylinder #4 also works, insert the rest of the spark wires one by one and try to start. Keep the tests brief so you dont flood the remaining cylinders.

 

If the engine and/or carbs have not been run for a long time, it might help to apply starter spray (or brake cleaner, the cheaper variant to the carb after making sure that the wiring is correct and you dont get backfires anymore.

[Mikez31ss]

I originally posted that pic in post #96. That was when I had just got the dizzy to spark. The engine was trying to start then but I was getting backfire through the carbs. With the electric fuel pump pushing 9psi there was too much gas coming out of the carbs to keep trying to start it. I disassembled the dizzy and turned the shaft around to what should be correct after that post. Then I ordered and installed a mechanical fuel pump and a good FPR. I'm just a little confused now because it isn't even trying to start or backfiring.

The smoke was definitely from the distributor area. I was looking at it when it happened. But if it wasn't the ignition module I can't imagine what else it could be. There is nothing in the dizzy to pop and smoke.

I have 3psi fuel pressure now. I removed the top covers of the carbs and there is gas in the bowls.

[vantage]

Do you have a timing light at hand? Connect it to spark wire #1 and point it at the balancer wheel. Have a friend then turn the starter and check if you see the mark on the balancer lining up with the degree indicator on the engine, e.g. cylinder #1 at TDC.

 

Also, when you manually turn your engine so that the mark on the balancer wheel and degree indicator line up, does the rotor now point exactly to the vertical line on the distributor cap? (cylinder #1)

[Mikez31ss]

Do you have a timing light at hand? Connect it to spark wire #1 and point it at the balancer wheel. Have a friend then turn the starter and check if you see the mark on the balancer lining up with the degree indicator on the engine, e.g. cylinder #1 at TDC.

 

Also, when you manually turn your engine so that the mark on the balancer wheel and degree indicator line up, does the rotor now point exactly to the vertical line on the distributor cap? (cylinder #1)

My friends are usually busy when it comes to helping with car work

When the balancer mark is line up with 0 degrees the rotor does indeed point to #1. I'm having a hard time with the "pencil in spark plug hole" method of determining if the piston is up. It works so well on a vg30 lol.

[vantage]

Do you suspect the balancer mark not to be in sync with the actual piston TDC position? Might explain the startup issues you see.

 

Could you do the test with only the first spark wire attached to cyl #1? I am quite curious if you get a carb or exhaust backfire with the current setup when testing cyl #1.

[Mikez31ss]

Do you suspect the balancer mark not to be in sync with the actual piston TDC position? Might explain the startup issues you see.

 

Could you do the test with only the first spark wire attached to cyl #1? I am quite curious if you get a carb or exhaust backfire with the current setup when testing cyl #1.

I'm not sure Adrian. I don't suspect that really but to be honest this is shaking my confidence in everything I know about cars. I know that everything in the motor is just like it was. The car ran great before so I assume it was right and still is. As in, the cam gear is correct, the crank gear and balancer are correct, and the oil pump is correct. Nothing has been changed in the engine itself.

It's just my understanding that when the crank mark lines up at 0 degrees, the engine is at TDC and the rotor should be facing #1 on the dizzy. Is that incorrect?

 

The weather has been bad here for several days. As soon as it clears up I'll find someone who can crank the engine while I watch the marks with a timing light.

[vantage]

The car ran great before so I assume it was right and still is. As in, the cam gear is correct, the crank gear and balancer are correct, and the oil pump is correct. Nothing has been changed in the engine itself.

It's just my understanding that when the crank mark lines up at 0 degrees, the engine is at TDC and the rotor should be facing #1 on the dizzy. Is that incorrect?

Correct, and if the car ran before then it is indeed quite unlikely that the piston #1 is not in sync with the crank mark line.

 

Just something i noticed when looking at your dist in the photo: the rotor does not seem to be exactly 180 degrees opposite of cylinder #1 but almost pointing to the next cylinder (which would explain the starting problems). Thats why i was interested where the rotor points to when you turn the engine manually to the TDC mark/0 degree.

[Mikez31ss]

Correct, and if the car ran before then it is indeed quite unlikely that the piston #1 is not in sync with the crank mark line.

 

Just something i noticed when looking at your dist in the photo: the rotor does not seem to be exactly 180 degrees opposite of cylinder #1 but almost pointing to the next cylinder (which would explain the starting problems). Thats why i was interested where the rotor points to when you turn the engine manually to the TDC mark/0 degree.

Good eye there Adrian

It isn't pointed quite at the #6 stator point is it? # 6 is the one you can just see just below the edge of the rotor in that pic. I'll go out and try to get a pic of the rotor w/ the crank mark set at 0.

[Mikez31ss]

Ok I got some pics. I just realized that you can look in the spark plug hole and actually see the top of the piston. So I verified that it's definitely at TDC.

This is a little past 0 degrees obviously:

Here is 0 degrees with red tape marking the line on the cap:

Here is a pic showing the stator point:

And TDC with the dizzy turned all the way clockwise:

I can't see anything that would prevent it from starting. When I removed plug #1 to check the piston position it wasn't tightened at all. I checked the rest and only #2 was loose.

I don't think that would keep the motor from starting but I'll try to start it up tomorrow.

[vantage]

Your distributor looks quite ok to me, good lets recap

 

- You verified that piston #1 at TDC is in alignment with the balancer TDC mark/degree plate

- You verified that the TDC mark/degree plate is in alignment with the rotor pointing to HV cylinder #1 terminal

 

That leaves the spark wires and the timing. Guess that the spark wire aligment is good, so would recommend to turn the distributor clockwise all the way to fully retard the timing.

If the engine wont start now, turn the distributor 1/3 of the way CCW to advance it a bit and try again. If you get a backfire, you might want to try out the approach with just the first spark wire from above.

 

Good luck,

Adrian

[Mikez31ss]

Oh well I thought I was at TDC on the compression stroke. Apparently it's at TDC on the exhaust stroke?

 

The #1 intake cam lobe should be up? The cam lobe is down so I'm at TDC on the exhaust stroke. Is that correct? If so then the upper shaft was correct and the rotor should be pointing at #6 on the dizzy. I need to put it back where it was.

Edited July 4, 2010 by Mikez31ss

[vantage]

Hmmm, your cams look like they are both up in the photo, e.g. both valves are closed which would be correct. How do the cams for cyl #6 look like?

 

If you are in a hurry to know swap the wires on your dist cap by 180 degree and give it a try, worst thing that can happen is backfiring through the exhaust.

[Mikez31ss]

Maybe that's a bad angle. Check these:

 

 

 

 

These are much larger: